perhaps what is trying to be made known here is that WANT is the guide, and to determine and set up laws that dictate what WANT SHALL BE, make for anarchy, and brainwashing that comes from one FIRST believing that MAYBE they be capable of such, which promote FEAR OF ONESELF.........

if i speak to my child and tell them MURDER is a sin, then they deem ANY THOUGHT ABOUT SUCH AS CONVINCING THEMSELF THEY ARE DAMNED AND SINFUL, WHICH MAKE THEM ACT THE SAME.......

IF each IS FREE to say "man i wanna kill ya", and freedom to embrace all words is free, then laughter can follow, as the heart is then allowed to know this it NOT what it WANT.........but repeated suppression by a society of FORCED DO GOODING, create ALL THAT IS NOW, and suppression of natural emotions that need to be EXPELLED thru speach, to wise ones with understanding, that KNOW this make none bad.......

my daughter took a pencil from a student, and was told she was a thief by the teacher.......if this thinking is not changed by the parent, and cannot EVER be if their is hiding by children for FEAR of being BAD, then a theif she can become later, as each time the impulse to take something, that all has had, plague the mind, and begin to settle into the subconscious, and control...........

but many hear such things from another and damn with negative response which program the mind to belief itself bad and to hide from others, which later in time can even create serial killers........

so who is more guilty, the serial killer or the one that made them first believe they were defective, which HAS TO BE THOUGHT TO COMMIT SUCH ACTS..........BOTH, but indeed, the one that perpetuated as the FIRST TO INSTILL SUCH BELIEF, is HELD MORE ACCOUNTABLE, as their words of understanding held the power to bind or free..............

if my daughter comes to me and says she wants to kill her friend for betraying her, if i laugh and say it is totally noraml, each has these thoughts, and it is only to make one expell the anger, to release the energy from the body, now she is RELIEVED, and believes again in herself, and if one believe in themself, they believe in all others......and fight or flight within each works properly for all situations.....

how can this be done with murder after murder and crime show after crime show being taken into the brain, making one to believe half-truths of evilness all round........not one that has murdered DID NOT FIRST SEE IT SOMEWHERE, as these COMPLETE mental pictures are NOT in the mind..........

so who is the GUILTY........the makers of such things that fill the mind of children with COMPLETED pictures of acts......WHAT GOES IN MUST COME OUT IN SOME WAY, or an explanation and wisdom teaching what ALLOW understanding to be had or doom will surely ensue.......

if any had/has thoughts that they wish to remain hidden, it is only because a law says MANY things be sinful, or wrong, even sex within the bedrooms of america has been tried to be be regulated, making for more of all that the religious hate, but blindly do not see they cause.............

if it is taught to do what you want, BUT first help ALL to see ALL the reactions that come from any one decision, then children would grow into thinking people that make educated decisions, and always find the good that guide each within themselves........

it is laws of morality that have decieved people into believing FIRST they are bad........

but those that think they are BETTER, will not speak understanding, and because of religion to not rememeber they to were once guilty, and so they deem all that admit to such acts and thoughts as evil, and even teach children to NOT HAVE AN EVIL THOUGHT.........PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD......all the while this is used by professed "holy" people to HIDE oneself and cloak their own evil thoughts and deeds..........all done by a "holy" spirit that deem another to be holy or good and unholy or not good.......indeed murder is accursed to hell and any that commit shall find themself in a living hell, seperated from all that is good within themself and others......

morality cannot be legislated without rebellion ensuing, even though the wheels of cause and effect grind so slowly they are seldom noticed until too late........

the law had to be for a TIME, but these laws shall pass away when the environment takes away the power to enforce them.....

religion shall be put on trial in front of all of the world, and found wanting in the balance, and found to create hell, and shall be accursed and damned to where it came from......back to hell.........

if your afraid of a serial killer now, then one is afraid of death, and to not find what will make you not afraid NOW, will allow much fear later to overtake when anarchy it has created is fully grown........peace

I think this is where people really have problems with religion in general. They need to believe that there are absolutes. They need to believe that there is a moral judge who will vindicate those who are moral, and make the immoral people pay for their immoralities.

In fact, Spider often uses this in his arguments. He often claims that a God who doesn't stand by his word and execute punishment for moral disobedience wouldn't be a righteous God. However, one huge problem with that is the idea of salvation. Supposedly, the most immoral wicked person who ever lived could have a change of heart on his death bed and be 'saved'.

In fact, the very idea of forgiveness in general flies in the face of a God who is righteous because he demands punishment for wrongful deeds. If he can instantly forgive them and ignore that they ever happened then the idea that he's righteous because he enforces his laws flies right out the window.

In fact, I ran a post about this quite a few months ago. According to the Bible portrait of God the following scenario is perfectly possible.

Here's the scenario.

You have a beautiful loving daughter. She always smiles and treats everyone with kindness and she is totally selfless, helping less fortunate people all the time. Everyone loves her. She brightens everyone's life and everyone agrees that if the world were full of people like her life would be like heaven.

But here's the catch. The girl is an atheist. She totally denounces God, and rejects that Jesus Christ is anything more than just a man. She totally denounced the entire Biblical picture as being nothing more than a manmade myth, and she even claims that it's full of nasty judgments and should be avoided.

She's a beautiful person, but totally denounces the God of Abraham and Jesus Christ as valid Gods.

Now this girl is brutally rapped and murdered by a nasty rapist, who doesn't care about anyone. His life is a total mess, he's addicted to drugs, an alcoholic, and he hates everyone. He even ran over a mother and her newborn baby once when he was drinking and driving. Everyone hates him and he hates everyone.

However, as life goes on he begins to see the error of his way, and whilst in prison he repents and is saved by the sacrificial blood of Jesus. All his sins are washed away and the angels are singing and rejoicing.

Ok, so now, the mother of the nice girl that he raped and murdered dies and goes to heaven. She arrives at the gate and sees her daughter's rapist in heaven. She asks Jesus where her daughter is and Jesus replies, "I'm sorry, but your daughter didn't believe in me. She chose to go to hell, but you're welcome to come on in and spend eternity with your daughter's rapist.

What do you think that mother's opinion would be of Jesus right about then?

And according to the Bible (and most preachers), it's not good deeds that get you into heaven. What gets you into heaven is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and the recognition that only he is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

By it's own proclamation the religion denies morality as being worth a damn.

The religion started out being concerned with good behavior, but it ended up being solely about the recognition that it is the only true religion.

And because of this, heaven could be chuck full of rapists and murders who have repented, and hell could be chuck full of really decent loving people who simply didn't believe that the biblical stories were true.

It's a seriously flawed religion.

But this is where religions that demand an "ultimate authority" lead. A belief and recognition of the authoritarian ultimately supercedes the moral values that the religion was initially supposed to be about.

spidercomb......if free will exist, then you have stolen it from many, by convincing them they are bad, and these words spoken by you shall make you found to be the most lacking.....

this religion you think has saved you has created more of the same in each you speak to, so how have you become an ambassador of love......

each you speak to you convince the more they are not loving beings, so how will this "do and be" as your jesus did.......

find these answers and you find the fulfillment of the law you serve as a master, and seek to make all others serve as a master, but any MASTER cannot exist without fear as the root.....

so what in you do you run from and try to cleanse yourself from, that your own mind keep whispering but you ignore, and cast it aside as satan, coming to convicne you you are not saved, when indeed it is the voice of your own god that try to reason with you and get you to look at YOURSELF.......

space-time world of duality? "JennieBean" isn't that what the religious do when you ask them a difficult question they start giving references to other dimensions that they have no knowledge of that even exist ..isn't that being evasive

if you believe that right or wrong is only opinions then wouldn't that mean that being a serial killer according to your belief is neither right nor wrong ... it's was an earthly question that shouldn't have require an unprovable spiritual world answer

Your's is not a difficult question to at all. If you don't understand the answer, then I don't know what how else help you. I don't know what "religions do." I am talking about physical and spiritual concepts and states of consciousness. You can't seem to get your head out of the box of religious concepts and morals.

I believe that we are immortal beings living in a physical world of duality which has concepts of "right" and "wrong."
I also realize that "right" and "wrong" boil down to opinions. Opinions come from conscious individuals who have a sense of "right" or "wrong." "Right and wrong" cannot exist without conscious individuals who have a sense or opinion of what is right or wrong.

If this serial killer has a dog, the dog may love, adore and obey him ~ no matter what. The dog may have no strong sense of right or wrong. He could even train the dog to help track down his victims. To the dog, it is just a fun game.

(I'm not saying all dogs are like this. I have known dogs who seem to have their own sense of right and wrong naturally.)




The earthly answer is: I believe it is a mistake to take a life in any circumstances. If you are mentally sick enough to be a serial killer, that is a shame and a tragedy. I can't say I believe it is "right or wrong" to be that mentally sick, it is just a tragedy. So, yes, it can't be called "right or wrong" according to my belief, because I feel it is a sickness and a tragedy.

If and when it is called "right or wrong," then that is a personal opinion. When I said I felt it is "wrong" to be a serial killer, that was my personal (earthly) opinion. At the same time, I realize that "right" and "wrong" are opinions. I also realize that I have opinions.

I don't know if you are aware of the different levels of conscious awareness going on within you, but I do sense them in myself. It that a conflict? It can be at times. It is called "internal dialog" or even "internal conflicts." They are only a problem when you can't see the different levels of understanding.

JB

but "JennieBean" aren't you the one whos head is stuck in religious and sociotal morality because you just deem that it was sick to be a serial killer when according to your own beliefs serial killing is part of the natural law of cause and effect and therefore are neither right nor wrong ..

you are trying to equate opinions as a substitute for morality when the two are clearly not the same..it then becomes you that is using the laws of society and religion and/or the hive mentality of the collective to form and justify your opinions as to what a moral standard is ...that is why for you to have an opinion that serial killing is anything but natural is to contradict your own beliefs

abra i believe it's still just the old have your cake and eat it to mentallity.

They want you to believe in a all righteous god that does not interfere with mans free will. But then at the same time he does interfere with mans free will. They deny it but dont look at some of their answers that contradict this.

such as: the one where a murderer is ready to take someone's life, and god "tries to work upon his conscience for him not to do so, this is outside influence of mans free will. it's no diff. than a police negotiator doing the same thing.

Then when you read the book, you see god directly interfering with mans supposed free will.

My point? - if god is directly able to intervene in and with man's free will, then he, man, really does not have free will. It is subject to gods whims of the moment.


i dont want a meddlesome god - either stay out of my decisions or else turn me into a robot, but dont act on your whims as you see fit to do. against that you say that i have and gave me.

if it's a gift - then let me do with it as i please, if it's a loan, whith pages of legal gobbledy gook attached, i aint signing up , i'll go elsewhere.

Exactly. A supposed "free will" where the only acceptable choice is to do God's will, is no free will at all.

Moreover, there's no polite and acceptable way to decline this God's offer for eternal servitude to him.

It's very clear, "Either LOVE ME or GO TO HELL!"

What kind of a free will choice is that?

If God is truly giving us a "free will" then we should be able to politely thank God and decline his offer of eternal servitude under his entirely fascist rule. And he shouldn't get pissed about it.

He should respect our wishes gracefully and allow us to back out of any commitment to him.

It doesn't need to mean that we choose to become his enemy.

A God who says, "You're either with me or against me!" sounds like George Bush.

There has to be a way to politely explain to the deity that you just aren't interested in his master plan and you'd like to resign from the game of life without any hard feelings on anyone's part.

This whole crap that there is only one choice, "Either choose to serve God or become a servant of Satan" is baloney.

Clearly this religion was designed by men who were trying to brainwash people into believing that they have no choice and cannot refuse this God (i.e. this religion). For to do so is to choose eternal damnation and side with demons.

That's total bull crap. Clearly the work of men. No genuine all loving truly benevolent God would people people in a situation where they either have to bow down and serve it for all of eternity or face eternal damnation.

That's no God.

Such a deity would itself be a demon.

I don't know what you are trying to say and I'm fairly certain you don't either. To call this post jibberish would be an insult to jibberish.

What is and is not "moral" is still just an opinion. Therefore morality itself is the result of opinions.

For example:
I like to dance, and yet as I young adult the church I attended preached that dancing was a "sin." I wondered how doing something artistic and joyful could be a "sin." I was not in agreement that that dancing was immoral or a sin.

If dancing is "immoral" by one individual's standards and not "immoral" by another's, then what is immoral or moral appears to be a personal opinion.

You cannot change this fact by changing the "sin" or crime from dancing to something more serious like killing, or even serial killing. Most people will agree that killing is wrong but not everyone agrees that dancing is wrong.

Some people will even defend killing, calling it "justified homicide, accident, war or self defense. So not everyone even agrees that "killing" is "wrong" or immoral.

Most people will agree that serial killing is "wrong" or even despicable. But the serial killer himself may not feel he is wrong, at least at the time he does it. He is fulfilling his need to kill and he will justify it in his own mind, at least while he is doing it. Later, he might change his mind. But it is still a matter of his own personal opinion of whether what he did is "right or wrong."

The sense of what is right and wrong always lies with the individual. Where a religion is concerned it is a group of individuals or people who get together and make a decision of what they think is moral or immoral and they make rules of what is a "sin" or not a "sin" or they make statements of what they think is immoral or moral. Because they have a large group who agrees with them, they think that their judgments are right and should be written in stone, and they attribute their rules to having been made by "god."

As for myself, I am living as a human and sometimes I will make judgments about right and wrong regardless of my understanding that "right and wrong" are just my opinion. But I also have been known to change my mind about what is right and wrong.

But the bottom line is, it is always just my personal opinion, which is meaningless to anyone other than myself, and is actually, in truth, none of anyone else's business.

JB

Abra wrote:


It also sound like my X-husband.

Christianity has to acknowledge that free will exists because "the will" is innate and it is always free because god is free.

If they were to deny that free will exists they would reveal themselves as a liar. So, instead they define "free will" as a single choice to follow their god or not.

If you make that choice you will quickly find a list of rules that you must obey. They are now making the decisions about right and wrong because they don't think you are aware enough to choose for yourself or to decide for yourself.

But in truth, religions hate the idea of the will being free. They constantly talk about "God's will" vs "your personal will" as if you and god are separate.

We are not separate from god, so the will is simply the will and it is always free. My will IS GODS WILL.

As individuals when we are in touch with love and with all that is, we will naturally do the will of god.

If we are not in touch with love, then we will do the will of the little self who does not know any better and who does not know how to love.

One of the purposes of life is to learn how to love.

JB

Davidben1:



Amen !

JB:

But the bottom line is, it is always just my personal opinion, which is meaningless to anyone other than myself, and is actually, in truth, none of anyone else's business


TRIBO:


not true!! i own a world wide franchise called

"make jellybeans business your own."

if you try to stop or sue me i will in turn counter sue you for every zuchini muffin you have!!

It is not fair for you to have opinions all of your own that cannot be used for business purose's. don't you believe in free trade and open markests?

what ia wrong with you goddess!!


thats my opinion and you can share it with everyone!

I do like to express my small and meaningless personal opinions but I would like to make it clear that I keep them separate from the truth which I speak on the spiritual level of the High Priestess of Brutal Truth and Honesty.

Sometimes people confuse the two. We High Priestesses live in two worlds.

JB

awh.......it is begged to be asked, if no words were spoken, would anything in the world as made by human hands ever have been built......

the whole truth be built just like any building, by exchange of all words, that PROFIT EACH THE HEARER AND THE SPEAKER equally......

if one words are not seen to create life and death, then the truth of their power is not yet seen or felt, and this can only be if they have been suppressed for waaaaaaaay too long..........

why speaking ALL WORDS bring sooner the truth that set all free from themself........peace

Priestess ????


sound rather childish? like " gee, that's the ""bestest"" thing in the whole world"



We need to find you another word instead goddess.



HMMM? i think "MAVEN" just might do it!

the Exhaulted MAVEN of brutal truth and honesty.


NAH!!

ok will stick with your way for now.








that is till i can find away to affect your free will -

What's a Mavan?

JB

Free will is a choice..A will to be Free

the question had nothing to do with what other considered as being moral or a sin because you yourself have deem that to be religious doctrine so you resorting to use the opinions of others as an example to explain your belief is once again contradicting the belief and reveals how you are trapped in the religious and sociotal concept of what morality is ...

you claim that you follow no anarchical god or any God that set forth laws which would mean that in your belief nothing can be deem to be right or wrong but yet you declare that serial killing is wrong ...sure that is your opinion and you are entitle to have one but you having an opinion that being a serial killer is wrong or that anything is right or wrong is contradicting your belief

you claim there are no rules but yet you make rules but evasiously call them opinions ..but according to your belief you should have no opinions that anything is right or wrong and that everything even serial killers are natural and acceptable

miles indeed this is true, but there is one other BIG half of the EQUASION.......none has the power to create the environment that they have the WILL to respond to, before they SEE it.....then one can only be HALF GUILTY, and by your logic, god be more powerful than humans, so then he has MORE guilt and fault.........

so for each to be made GUILTY, these things would HAVE to be true, and why there is only half wisdom in what you say, as the choice is HALF made up of what one SEES AND HEARS AND TASTE AND SMELLS AND FEELS.......should each go into a cave and shield the eyes and ears to be found NOT GUILTY..........then the cave give environment that one must WILL reaction to........the motive that say such, is to keep the belief oneself NOT GUILTY, by showing how others are.......peace