Man certainly has free will. Otherwise God would be unjust to choose some to be saved and others to be lost based just on his whim. The problem with those who say that once a person is saved he cannot lose his salvation is that such a doctrine necessarily requires the belief that man does not have free will.

Exactly. If I "got saved" and then later changed my mind, I would expect to be allowed to get out of that contract - which is a contract for my soul.

But the dark side likes to make bargains for your soul energy and heard you into their recycling operation after you die and if you agree to it and then change your mind they might actually get real ticked off at you and try to convince you that once you make the bargain, you have to stick to it.

This just is not true for either the dark or the light side. They have one thing in common. They both want your soul energy. They are two sides to the same coin. They are the same. Operation with two different faces. They are both the powers of good and evil working for balance in this world.

The true path is the middle path where you are free. You do not follow or serve the dark lord or the light barer. You are a free soul. You are eternal. Don't let anyone talk you out of that.

JB

I think the real question is how anyone who "studied" the Bible for "40 years" and has "many uncles who are pastors" wouldn't be able to answer these questions himself.

But I do answer them. You just don't like the answers because they aren't what you want to hear.

Here's a question for you,...

If the biblical stories are so crystral clear in the answers they give then why are their so many differnt religions, sects, and denominations based on the biblical stories?

If there's one thing that is truly crystal clear it's that even clergy who have dedicated their entire lives to focusing on theology can't even agree with each other.

They have proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that the bible is complete ambiguous.

In fact, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all based on the very same folklore and they are prepared to start world war three over their differences of opinions of what "God" supposedly meant.

You always avoid the real questions. Like how could an all-powerful God be at war with a fallen angel that he can't control? Where does that fallen angel get his power if not from God? And if God is freeling giving him power then is he not supporting his activities? The idea that God must give the fallen angel free will doesn't hold water because the pentalty for disobedience to God is death. No free will required. Also, God didn't hesistate to turn Lot's wife into a pillar of Stone. Where was her free will when she needed it?

Also, it clearly states in the book of Job that Satan went to God to ask permission to test Job. But why would Satan be asking God for permission to do anything if he's God's enemy? Clearly there's some major flaws in this whole biblical story that you are refusing to recoginize.

And why would a supposedly unchanging God change? At one point he feels that it's perfectly ok to just flush humanity down the toilet with a flood, and then the he does an about face and sends his ownly begotten son to save the world. Clearly he isn't being consistent in his actions. The biblical stories claim that God is one way, but then they have him acting in manners that don't reflect the traits that he's supposed to have.

I could go on, and on, and on with these kinds of contraditions and self-inconsistencies in these stories, and even point out how similar they are to all the other Mediterranean myths of those ancient times. But I've already done all of that countless times and you just refuse to recognize it. You'd rather believe that you have the word of God because it makes you feel big. What better feeling than to imagine that you are fighting God's war against the devil and ignorance. Who could say that there is anything wrong with that, surely any decent person would want to be on God's side.

But you see, Spider, that's the real danger of the religion. It hits the ego very hard. It's extremely easy to fall into the trap of thinking that you are fighting a war for God and your position can only be righteous because you are out to save souls. Unfortunately that isn't what actually happens. What actually happens is that you end up turning people against God and religion instead. You make people feel like they are bad for not believing in the biblical stories which are horribly gross violent solutions to problems.

It's a guilt-trip religion. Either believe this religion or you are rejecting God himself!

But like I say, it's perfectly clear that even the wisest scholars and theologians of all time have never been able to come to a consensus on what it all means. The only thing they seem to be able to agree with is that that God requires blood sacrifices to pay for sins, and that he gave his only begotten son to pay for our sins and now we own him for that great thing that he has done for us.

But the problem is that even if this story is true it's all about a creator who created this situation in the first place. If men are inherently evil it can only be because that's the way that God created them.

It has nothing to do with a need for free will because mere mortal philosophers have come up with religious scenarios for free will creation that don't require fallen angels, hellfire, or inherently evil beings.

On the contrary, if fallen angels were required for Free Will to exist then Satan would be an absolutely necessary part of God's creation and therefore God could not say that such a thing is evil because it would be a necessary part of the whole cretion scheme.

The bottom line is simple Spider,... Even entire chruches, clergy, and theologians don't agree on what the bible says, so if you think that you have the only correct interpretation of the Bible then you are truly suffering from an extremely arrogant delusion. No one can claim that status Spider. No one. You were never even forumally trained in theology, all you're doing is stating your own opinions of what you'd like the book to mean.

to believe in God is one thing but to call upon faith to believe in God turns the belief into a fantasy

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. -- Hebrews 11:1

i don't think you can create scenerios for imaginary people and tell whether they are strong or not. What you fail to elaborate on is their history, where are they born? if in China maybe they don't believe in a "God" or read the "bible" if they are a Muslim. Also what if someones whole family was killed in a car accident, or their family was murdered, or maybe they became addicted to drugs, maybe one of them contracted HIV and is now dying... everyones lives and stories are different and how those stories go affect our thoughts, our hearts, our feelings, and our choice of beliefs.

which are the exact things needed to construct a fantasy -- funches 3:16

Two quotes from 'adventureBegins' :






NO ONE is offending you Spider.

And you intentionally or consciously are not insulting ANY ONE either.

And yet, there is this mutual sentiment of 'insults' and 'disrespect' of one another's views whenever you show up to some, and some show up to you.

What could possibly be the ghost at work, causing this sort of distortion and confusion?!?!?

I think 'AdventureBegins', in the couple of posts quoted above, targets the heart, the root, the source of the ongoing saga opposing 'spider', crying and complaining that he is attacked and offended by the rest of the 'posting' world.

What could possibly bring that upon 'spider'? How does, and what does 'spider' do and say (unconsciosly, unintentionally) which could possibly bring about the CORRELATE REACTION by a good number of 'respectful' and quite articulate other posters, whom simply don't agree; whom simply have diametrically opposed opinions and perspectives.

I think that at the source of it, lies a simple and quite obvious FALSE PREMISE.

That false premise is simple enough, and has to do with how people in general, and 'spider' in particular, unconsciously, and therefore irresponsibly (can't be responsible of something one is unconscious of), keep failing at making the essential and fundamental distinction between, ...

'...what I believe, and therefore what IS TRUE FOR ME !!!'

AND,

'... what I believe, IS THE TRUTH, and FURTHEMORE, IT IS THE TRUTH THAT I AM CHARGED BY THE ONLY GOD THAT TRULY EXISTS ('for me' doesn't register here) TO INFORM THE WORLD!'

When you compare that false and delusional (not Spider, but the delusional premise confusing 'true for me' and 'THE TRUTH') claim of

'... what I believe IS THE TRUTH',

to the inclusive and accurate premise of 'adventurebegins' that rings off to me as ...

'... what I believe to be true for me',

when he offers 'the light or the diamond', and the 'mountain journey' metaphors, you are left with two very distinct and irreconcialiable perspectives.

Perspective 'A':

Those whom 'believe' WE ARE ALL (humanity) on a journey for 'truth', where 'truth' is not accessible to any of us yet, and MIGHT be to ALL OF US, if at all, only when all reach the top of the mountain.

Perspective 'B' :
... opposed to those (some not all) whom act as though they had already made it to the top of the mountain (had the truth already), and MUST show others THEIR path, AS THOUGH IT WERE THE ONLY ONE because they hold onto the delusion that they have THE TRUTH, and OTHERS DON'T!!!

Other angle:

Perspetive 'A' : 'all together, inclusive, and respectful of each other's different paths towards the same destination'

'B' : 'separate, divisive, 'we have THE TRUTH you don't', and 'we have made to the top of the mountain, you haven't' fallacies'

That in my opinion is the simple and rather stale, confused and irreconciliable premises which keep surfacing as a false and erroneous debate in the different forums where the 'true for me' and the 'spider' kind of 'having the truth'.

NO PERSONNAL OFFENSES ANYWHERE. Just confused premises.

For with God nothing shall be impossible. -- Luke 1:37

For we walk by faith, not by sight. -- Corinthians 5:7

Voil,

I haven't claimed that anyone has offended me. i haven't cried or complained that I have been offended or attacked. I'm not sure why you are making this claim, as nothing I have posted has made these sorts of claims. For this reason, I believe you are either a) confused and will offer an apology for mischaracterizing my posts or b) making strawman fallacies in an attempt to bait me into arguing with you.

AB thinks that as a Christian, I can only see a little bit of God. And if I were to look at God as he does I would see all that God has to offer. I believe that position to be one of arrogance and not worth my time. I talk about MY BELIEFS, I do not denigrate the beliefs of others. His beliefs are his and I have no right to belittle those beliefs.

I speak of my beliefs just as my Muslim friend speaks of his. Or my Shik friend speaks of his. As the absolute truth. As anyone who holds a religious belief as the truth would. For me to say "This is my truth", that would be me changing my beliefs, because I don't believe it is "my truth" it is the truth. I wouldn't insist that someone who wasn't a Christian preface all statements with "This is my truth", that's just silly. It's understood that all people who have a belief, believes their belief. It's kind of the reason it's called a belief...because it's believed.

It's ironic that you scorn me for believing that I know the absolute truth, but praise AB for thinking he has the absolute truth. I would smile at your expense, but I find it sad that someone can blind himself to his own hypocrisy.

Unfortuntely that is the divisive nature of a religion that rejects non-believers as having rejected God.

Such religions truly are religions that reject people by the very fact that they claim that people who don't buy into them are rejecting God.

They are divisive religions.

everything is possible in the mind and on the sci-fi channel -- funches 3:16



just close thy eyes ..and fantsize -- funches 3:16

SPIDER:

AB thinks that as a Christian, I can only see a little bit of God. And if I were to look at God as he does I would see all that God has to offer. I believe that position to be one of arrogance and not worth my time. I talk about MY BELIEFS, I do not denigrate the beliefs of others. His beliefs are his and I have no right to belittle those beliefs



TRIBO:

I believe that position to be one of arrogance and not worth my time. I talk about MY BELIEFS, I do not denigrate the beliefs of others. His beliefs are his and I have no right to belittle those beliefs

spider you just did what you said you dont do - belittle AB's beliefs. " i believe that position(that AB holds inferred by you) to be one of arrogance and not worthy of my time"

Obviously, I am not talking about his religious beliefs, but his position that he can criticize my beliefs. The fact that AB believes he can look down upon me, because my religious beliefs are different than his own. I don't look down on other's religious beliefs, mainly because I think it's wrong but also because it's against the forum rules to belittle another's religious beliefs.

'spider' wrote earlier on this thread:



this is one of countless similar statements where you imply being offended personnally, or where you claim that all christians are being ACTIVELY!!! offended!


In spite of which, 'spider' replied the following:



Apologies?!?!? I don't think so!!!

You seem to be confused my dear friend. But that is OK!

You seem to be mischaracterizing and wrecklessly twisting all that you do not agree with. But that is OK!

You obviuously are totally missing the point I offered, and are rushing back with rather juvenile 'apologetics army' rhetoric to provoke and bait others to argue senselessly on the basis of those delusions, for which you refuse take responsiblity. BUT THAT IS OK!!!

It is OK, and I for one, and I trust I can speak for those whom share this particular view, FORGIVE YOU SPIDER.

Like all of us, you are on the same humble and faith based path for that 'truth' which escapes us all. We forgive that you have yet to realize this! It very much part of the human experience we all share together.

But that's precisely what you do all the time Spider. You claim that the only way to God is through the biblical scripture. You claim that everyone who doesn't hold that view has a distorted view of God.

You're just insisting that you are standing on the highest possible pedestal, the holiest ground, and that everyone else needs to come up to where you are.

You claim that everyone else is arrogant except you. You're the only one who has it right.

And that's not arrogance?

Absolutely!

In fact, from my point of view there isn't even anything to 'forgive'. Just wake up to the fact that religion isn't doing anyone any good when it becomes nothing more than a defensive campaign to prove who's right or wrong.

Instead of going around trying to get people to beleive in the Bible, and accusing them of rejecting God if they don't believe it, why not try just doing some of the things that Jesus actually taught.

Abra,

You said "You claim that everyone who doesn't hold that view has a distorted view of God"

That's not true. I'm not sure what gave you that opinion. Unless you mean a distorted view of the God of Abraham and then yes, I have said that. As to your belief in your gods...not my place to comment.

Voil,

I think you are confused. I was addressing JBs position that I had was being offensive. I was pointing out the hypocrisy of complaining that someone's post is offensive, when you personally try to be as offensive as possible to another's religion. She was offended by the fact that I present my beliefs as the truth, which implies that her beliefs are not the truth. By believing in a particular religion, everyone is making this same statement! On the other hand, JB will actively insult and belittle Christianity. Those are two totally different things, which is what I hoped for her to see.

I wasn't complaining, but I suppose I could see how you would think that. But it doesn't quite live up to your statement that I was "crying and complaining that he is attacked and offended by the rest of the 'posting' world". I was pointing out her active method of insulting Christians while Christians AND EVERYONE ELSE WHO BELIEVES IN ONE RELIGION passively suggest that other's are wrong. One is acceptable and the other is not. And it's not I who decided which was acceptable in civilized discussions, it has been practiced by society since the time of the Greeks. It's okay to say "My beliefs are the truth", because everyone says that. It's not okay to say "Your beliefs are a lie". Simple civility.