Belief in the origin of the universe and life are subjective, because we don't have proof one way or another. So it is perfectly correct for someone to have an opinion on the subject of origins. I believe that being offended, by someone having an opinion on which no facts are known, is pointless.

This belief is based on faith. You can only be sure that the sun rose during your lifetime and then only during times when you were cognizant of the sun's existance. So probably since you were 3 or 4. It's possible that the sun never rose before that time, you are simply taking at faith that it did.

I am not trying to beat you here, just having a healthful debate. I know I will not sway your opinion any more than you will sway mine.

Spider:

What happens is that each church is specifically tailored to a certain type of person. You rarely find one Christian who has always stayed with the same denomination / church. They move around until they find a church that fits perfectly



tribo:

And that's why I'm asking - WHY?? - if it's the same spirit that guides "All", no matter what sectarian holdings they may personally hold, Why would any choose to be, as you state, "moving around to "find" "A" "church" that "fit's them"? - "perfectly'?? is god not the one being seek-ed after? And if so - then why isn't everyone of you following gods "SPIRIT", in stead of your own beliefs on a "personal level?

It does no good for you or MS, or Feral, or Wouldee, to talk to me about only knowing gods truth if i have the spirit, if the spirit you have cannot be counted upon to give the same info to all with no differences, again it sounds like you all want your cake and eat it to, your own desires vs. gods spirits desires.

It does not require a genius to realise that religion is a man made item : too many contradictions , does not make sense ...etc.
As far as who created us : it is a very complex issue that no one knows .

Tribo,

You are missing my point completely.

Read Romans 14 before asking me any more questions.

The Holy Spirit tailors Christianity to your strengths and weaknesses. When someone feels that Christianity shouldn't include dancing, he goes out and founds his own church based on that belief. Maybe others believe the same way and they seek out his church. Some of the people who join that church come to the belief that there is nothing wrong with dancing, so they move on to another church. Some of the congregation believe that not only is dancing a sin, but eating pork is a sin too. So they start a new church, which doesn't allow dancing or eating pork. That's not to say that Christians aren't supposed to eat pork or dance, but minor doctrinal issues like that aren't really important. They are covered in Romans 14.

According to all here that believe as you do, it does me no good to read R14 or anything else since i do not have the spirit, so you tel me how you take this to mean that your petty differences should affect what the spirit is leading you in all perfectness, as to gods word and how myriads of different HUMAN beliefs interfere with this - does not the spirit TEACH all of you to believe the same way? if not then whats the point, why should there be numerous different petty beliefs among you? Either the spirit is teaching ALL of you the same or he is not! If not, then you are listening to your own flesh desires and not his, and if so then who really has the truths among you?

Before adressing the second part, this statement needs a bit of clarification. Simply calling oneself a "Catholic" or "Baptist" or "name-the-denomination" is not qualification for having the holy spirit. It isn't a door prise one gets when they join a church. The Holy Spirit is given to one who repents of their sins, and recognises the finished work of Christ on the cross and has the faith that God raised Him from the death. This is independent of any denominational adherancy.
Therefore....



The key word here is "leading". This suggests that those who are spirit filled are on a "journey" as it were, and are in various places on that journey and not necessarily at the same place of their understanding or maturity. The question "why the divisions" is a good one, and there really isn't a justifyable response. However, there is certainly an explainable one. It comes down to "man's accepting the interpretation of Man." Those who's faith is in their - priest, pastor, guru, mentor - whatever. These leaders may not be spirit filled themselves, but simply charismatic. Jim Jones, Charles Manson, Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, - are a few names that come to mind. These are leaders who's "understanding" of the truth's of the bible have been blindly accepted by their followers - without examining the scriptures for themselves. Therefore - the "fact" that they have the spirit themselves comes into question.
Therefore - you have divisions. That does not imply that there are those who may be spirit filled who sit in the pews of these denominations - just that the "church of believers who are filled with the spirit" does not define itself by denominational bounderies.

We know that the Great Flood could not have occurred or it would have left behind clear and unambigious geological evidence. Thus there is at least one historical event in the Bible that has to be false.

The other thing that has been disproved is the claim that the world was perfect until man fell to sin thus creating the need for death and imperfections. We know now that animals ate each other and died long before man ever came onto the scene.

So there are at least two clear and unambigous proofs that the Bibilcal stories can't all be true.

No, you need to read Romans 14, so that you can see it explained by Paul. It doesn't require the Holy Spirit to understand, it's just common sense.

If God exists
And God knows your heart
And God's strength is perfected in your weakness
And each person is unique with their own strengths and weaknesses
THEN it makes sense that certain doctrinal issues differ from Christian to Christian.

Now think about this:

Soandso is a Christian who is convinced that eating pork is a sin.
Soandso decides to eat pork anyways.
Has Soandso sinned? Yes. Because he choose an action which he believed was a sin. It's not important if eating pork really is a sin or not, the sin is in Soandso choosing to perform an action which Soandso is convinced is a sin. God wants us to serve him out of love and if you love someone, you shouldn't do something which you know will hurt or offend him/her.

If this is true, then anyone who rejects the Bible as being the word of God because they truly believe in their heart that it can't be the word of God would then be doing what they believe is right to truly serve God.

Therefore they can only be doing what is best in God's eyes.

So for those who are convinced that the Bible cannot be the word of God, they are better off following their hearts.

Because that's when they are closest to God.

No, that's not true, because those who are saved are saved through the work of Jesus Christ and not their own. Christians avoid sin out of love for God, not because it gives them a ticket to heaven. Jesus paid the price for our sins and it is only through Jesus' sacrifice that anyone can go to heaven.

Avoiding sin is about pleasing God and is the fruit of faith, it is not salvation.

well if i can use my common sense to read and understand that, then why is the spirit necessary at all? You cant tell me a dozen times i need it to comprehend and then tell me to use my common sense to intepret my own opinion from romans or else where? thats a catch 22!

As to your so and so scenario, suck's - sin is sin in your gods eyes and truth's are truth's!! there are no marginal sis's as to greviuos sins in gods eyes they are all sin. if god says dont eat pork then don't! if he says it's ok then do! problem is he says both. god say's no! jesus says its ok ? if they cant gwet it right then how is anybody to get it right?

******** DISPROVE?!?!?! ******** HISTORIANS?!?! ******** EVIDENCE?!?!?! ******** 'PROVEN'?!?!?!

How can one keep confusing, misappropriating, and ill-subjecting his 'faith' to the totally irrelevent domains of facts, evidence and proof.

It is like insisting, in spite of the evidence, facts and proof, that a square object fits perfectly snuggly inside a round receptacle.

It takes a lot of 'filling' (bs) to make such logical fallacies fly.

The bible some people 'legitimately' beleive in, is a 'faith' based book. Not a history book and not a scientific record of any sort. Not scientific at all, and not substatiated in the least. Not only does faith NOT NEED to be proven, but it would no longer be THE SACRED BOOK if it were proven!!! Why do self-proclaimed faithfull people keep insisting on shooting their faith down from the 'sacred', to the mere lowly domain of evidence, and petty proof?!?!?!

The domain of faith, beliefs, and all the material supporting the different faiths and beliefs, are based on nothing that has to be proven, provable, substantiated, materialized, or, other than in the form of abstaction, faith and beliefs, has to exist.

The only fact about God, the bible, and all accompanying beliefs, is that all of it has absolutely no relation to fact, evidence, or proof. To cross that line is a direct act of perversion of faith, god, beliefs and all.

If you keep insisting that your faith, beliefs, or material supporting them, truly exist in the form of fact or evidence, you are no longer talking about faith or beliefs. You are no longer of good 'faith' in the matter of faith.

And that is strictly a matter of fact, not a matter of faith.

As to the first part - clarification, im talking of those who claim they have this perfectly correct spirits leading within them, i cant asee their heart, nor can you, to say otherwise is foolish, but of those who presumably do - why would there be a reason to divide over pork eating or such? I recognize the repentence and turning away sin - im not asking if people who attend a meeting think they have the spirit, im talking of those who say they do.

your second part is a bad example - why? - because within the entire body then there lies unsound doctrine and preachers of every denomination - im speaking of those here that say they do and yet hold different beliefs from one to another. no matter how small! As far as im concerned futurist beliefs are wrong, but that is my take, its not something a spirit is telling me except for my own. Though i rspect your opinoins Eljay it doesnot answer my question. nor does spiders, you still want your cake and eat it to.

I've never told you that you can't understand the Bible without the Holy Spirit. Most of the Bible is clearly and easily understandable to anyone. Some of it requires spiritual guidance. But I would guess that at least 90% of the Bible will make as much sense to anyone who reads it and comprehends what is being read.



God commanded the Israelites to not eat pork. I'm really growing tired of repeating myself, please try to understand. Most of the Laws of the old testament were given to the Israelites, they were a nation of people. Christianity is a religion which is designed to exist in any country, therefore we are commanded to follow the laws of the nation we live within, unless they go against God's commandments (such as worshipping Caesar as a god). Christians use the Old Testament laws to determine God's likes and dislikes, but we only enforce them on ourself. Not on others, except in considerations of excommunicating willful sinners. So when God told the Israelites "Don't eat pork or shellfish", that was a commandment for them. Christians aren't Israelites (although we are the spiritual children of Abraham), so we are free from dietary (and Sabbath) laws.

Voil,

I'm not sure what your complaint is...

Many of the events in the Bible have been confirmed by archeologists. Pontius Pilot was the governor of Israel. People were crucified as described in the Bible. Lots of people and places, have been confirmed by archeologists. That's the point I was making. That's not to say that the supernatural aspects of the Bible are confirmed, but it goes go a long way improve the credibility of the Bible.

He wants to pretend that his religion can't be disproved, but in fact it has been disproved. The doctrine claims that man's fall to sin is what brought sin and death into an otherwise perfect world. But we know that can't be true because bother death, and imperfections existed long before mankind ever came onto the scene. So the very foundation of the belief system has been proven to be untrue if someone wants to talk about actual 'proofs'.

QUOTE:

As to your so and so scenario, suck's - sin is sin in your gods eyes and truth's are truth's!! there are no marginal sis's as to greviuos sins in gods eyes they are all sin. if god says dont eat pork then don't! if he says it's ok then do! problem is he says both. god say's no! jesus says its ok ? if they cant gwet it right then how is anybody to get it right?



God commanded the Israelites to not eat pork. I'm really growing tired of repeating myself, please try to understand. Most of the Laws of the old testament were given to the Israelites, they were a nation of people. Christianity is a religion which is designed to exist in any country, therefore we are commanded to follow the laws of the nation we live within, unless they go against God's commandments (such as worshipping Caesar as a god). Christians use the Old Testament laws to determine God's likes and dislikes, but we only enforce them on ourself. Not on others, except in considerations of excommunicating willful sinners. So when God told the Israelites "Don't eat pork or shellfish", that was a commandment for them. Christians aren't Israelites (although we are the spiritual children of Abraham), so we are free from dietary (and Sabbath) laws.


tribo:

jesus said he did not come to CHANGE the law, but to fullfil it! therefor all lwas still apply if it were not for grace. your shellfish/pork being for obedience to laws in a paticular nation culture dont hold water either. The laws were gods for gods people for all time be it the period of grace or law. Si if in the period of grace - now - jesus states as long as you bless it - its good to eat - then why do others think it's not? why cant your spirit make that clear to all? and dont repeat Eljay and new christians to old - there are many who follow the fish on friday regime of C's, or not eating pork or anything else even after paul says its ok.