Heres the punchline:


I cant prove a darn thing Ive said

I can tell you its NOT me

Cult. Ive been accused of that before. That is why I dont like that word. Its a very hurtful word to me.

most chicks don't like the "C" word

Why? Most all religions began as a cult.

JB

Your right

But a lot of people want to use that word as a slander

look at it this way MM, if both the preterist and dipenvangelist, are both filled with the holy spirit, both saved, both believe in the core tenets of the faith, virgin birth, jesus is savior,etc., why would you not believe this if not for your current dispenvangelist take on it? I think you owe it to yourself to rethink your views and look deeper into this.

sincerely tribo

Interesting. I will look into it.

do so then, MM, may you be blessed

Im already familiar with the basic concept of what you are saying Tribo. I just need to become more acquainted with some of the terminology.

fair enough.

lmao My brownies! *snugs them close* I'll make you your own batch though hehe Would you like mint brownies or peanut butter brownies? Or cream cheese brownies...? lol

QUESTION: 1 Thess. 4:16-18 says “the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” How could this be fulfilled already?

ANSWER: One thing that needs to be mentioned right up front is that there is a tremendous similarity between the language here in this context (1 Thess. 4, 5) and Matt. 23-25 (esp. Matt. 24:29-31). There was a great article on this similarity in the Nov. 1989 issue of our newsletter. It was written by Joseph Canfield, and entitled "Matt. 24 and 1 Thess. 4 Compared." Look for this article in the "Articles and Reviews" section of this website, under the heading "Articles from Past Issues of our newsletter." The angels, trumpet and gathering are mentioned in Matt. 24. The angels, trumpet and catching-up are mentioned in 1 Thess. 4. We should always use the easier passages on a subject to help interpret the more difficult ones. In this case, Matt. 24 is the easier one. It is a matter of historical record (Josephus, Eusebius, Tacitus and the Talmud) that the trumpets, voices of angels and angelic activity were seen and heard in the time leading up to and during the destruction of Jerusalem. Unfortunately many Christians are just not aware of this. They are not being taught this by current (predominantly-futurist) clergy. The “catching-up” (1 Thess. 4:17) or “gathering” (Matt. 24:31) occurred at this very time (AD 66) when Josephus says they saw the angels and heard the voices and trumpets. Here are a few quotes from the writings of Josephus, Eusebius, Tacitus, and Yosippon to document the fulfillment of these things.

Josephus Wars Book 6, Chapter 5, Sections 2 and 3)

War 6:286 (6.5.2.286) Now, there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose upon the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God: and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes.

War 6:288 ¶ (6.5.3.288) Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend, nor give credit, to the signs that were so evident and did so plainly foretell their future desolation; but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see, or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them.

War 6:289 (6.5.3.289) Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year.

War 6:290 (6.5.3.290) Thus also, before the Jews’ rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus [Nisan], and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which light lasted for half an hour.

War 6:291 (6.5.3.291) This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it.

War 6:296 (6.5.3.296) So these publicly declared, that this signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the twenty-first day of the month Artemisius [Jyar],

War 6:297 (6.5.3.297) a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it,

War 6:298 (6.5.3.298) and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sunsetting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen

War 6:299 (6.5.3.299) running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise,

War 6:300 (6.5.3.300) and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, “Let us remove hence.”

Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Chapter 8, Sections 1-6

1 Taking, then, the work of this author, read what he records in the sixth book of his History. His words are as follows:94 “Thus were the miserable people won over at this time by the impostors and false prophets;95 but they did not heed nor give credit to the visions and signs that foretold the approaching desolation. On the contrary, as if struck by lightning, and as if possessing neither eyes nor understanding, they slighted the proclamations of God.

2 At one time a star, in form like a sword, stood over the city, and a comet, which lasted for a whole year; and again before the revolt and before the disturbances that led to the war, when the people were gathered for the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth of the month Xanthicus,96 at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone about the altar and the temple that it seemed to be bright day; and this continued for half an hour. This seemed to the unskillful a good sign, but was interpreted by the sacred scribes as portending those events which very soon took place.

3 And at the same feast a cow, led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple.

4 And the eastern gate of the inner temple, which was of bronze and very massive, and which at evening was closed with difficulty by twenty men, and rested upon iron-bound beams, and had bars sunk deep in the ground, was seen at the sixth hour of the night to open of itself.

5 And not many days after the feast, on the twenty-first of the month Artemisium,97 a certain marvelous vision was seen which passes belief. The prodigy might seem fabulous were it not related by those who saw it, and were not the calamities which followed deserving of such signs. For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen throughout the whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and encircling the cities.

6 And at the feast which is called Pentecost, when the priests entered the temple at night, as was their custom, to perform the services, they said that at first they perceived a movement and a noise, and afterward a voice as of a great multitude, saying, ‘Let us go hence.’98

Tacitus, Histories, Book 5

Prodigies had occurred, which this nation, prone to superstition, but hating all religious rites, did not deem it lawful to expiate by offering and sacrifice. There had been seen hosts joining battle in the skies, the fiery gleam of arms, the temple illuminated by a sudden radiance from the clouds. The doors of the inner shrine were suddenly thrown open, and a voice of more than mortal tone was heard to cry that the Gods were departing. At the same instant there was a mighty stir as of departure. Some few put a fearful meaning on these events, but in most there was a firm persuasion, that in the ancient records of their priests was contained a prediction of how at this very time the East was to grow powerful, and rulers, coming from Judea, were to acquire universal empire. These mysterious

Sepher Yosippon (A Mediaeval History of Ancient Israel) translated from the Hebrew by Steven B. Bowman. Excerpts from Chapter 87 "Burning of the Temple"

For one year before Vespasian came, a single great star shining like unsheathed swords was seen over the Temple. And in those days when the sign was seen it was the holiday of Passover and during that entire night the Temple was lit up and illuminated like the light of day, and thus it was all seven days of the Passover. All the sages of Jerusalem knew that it was a malevolent sign, but the rest of the ignorant people said that it was a benevolent sign.

…Now it happened after this that there was seen from above over the Holy of Holies for the whole night the outline of a man's face, the like of whose beauty had never been seen in all the land, and his appearance was quite awesome.

Moreover, in those days were seen chariots of fire and horsemen, a great force flying across the sky near to the ground coming against Jerusalem and all the land of Judah, all of them horses of fire and riders of fire. When the holiday of Shavu'oth came in those days, during the night the priests heard within the Temple something like the sound of men going and the sound of men marching in a multitude going into the Temple, and a terrible and mighty voice was heard speaking: "Let's go and leave this House.

We have both Josephus and Eusebius available for order right here at IPA. Simply click on their names below to read their book descriptions.

1. Josephus: The Complete Works - by William Whiston, translator

2. Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History - by C.F. Cruse, trans.

For more Biblical exposition in answer to this question I would heartily refer the reader to these books on the subject of the rapture text:

1. Expectations Demand a First Century Rapture - by Edward E. Stevens

2. Taken to Heaven in AD 70 - by Ian Harding

3. The Parousia - by James Stuart Russell

These three books explain in much detail "how" the rapture occurred. These books are available here on our website. Click on the book titles to read the descriptions of them on our book list.


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TRIBO:

other thing's not mentioned here is the deplorable condition's of those inside the walls of the city, dieing daily from hunger, worse than the bible states - "a day's wages for a loaf of bread" In one reported case by the soldier's upon entering a house a woman was found bent in front of a cooking pot and offered the soldier from it, only to find she had killed and was eating her own child. when reading the entire account of what happened in those times, it is a most convincing evidence that what was said in the book, was true to this: the Israelites came out from under there bondage with great signs and wonders by the word of their god, and received there destruction in the same manner with signs and wonder the ancient world had never seen before. Modern day christians who marvel at seeing their god's power in such thing's as the plagues, the parting of the sea, the pillar of clouds and fire, and other's in such movies as the 10 commandments by Cecil B. DeMill, were nothing compared to what a movie based on known historical writings say happened leading up to and ending with the destruction of jerusalem in AD 70 - even speilburg and lucas would be challenged to recreate all the phenomana recorded by those outside the city.

just good old fashion chocolate brownies nothing fancy, just chewy and gooey - hahaha

All eyes will open and all ears will hear.........

ALL I KNOW IS THERE BEST BE PUDDING!!!

get off your your horse and read deb, dont die in ignorance please, your wrong yet you dont know why, and if your stubborn and won't put "new belief" aside to learn of this then you will. Your all waiting on or for a time that will not come.

well what exactly is going to happen?