well then they had a choice ...it's a choice to be a christian ...no one is born with a christian "C" tattooed to their forehead ..that is a decision one makes...Jesus set an example of suicide and those that were most than likely sudicial followed him

"Chazster" I once heard a rumor that everyone dies wheather they believe in something or not ....and I heard a rumor that this takes place because God made Man imperfect but yet you lack respect for me when I had no hand in it but yet you respect and worship the God that did ....fascinating

God did not have a hand in their death. They merely died for a belief. Whether that belief is for religion, your family, your country, or something else you hold dear it should be respected. If God does exist and these people died for him then they shall be rewarded and you can be sure God would not belittle their deaths.

I don't think its fascinating to respect people who die honorably for a cause they believe in. Neither do I think it fascinating to detest those who belittle those people.

and "Chazster" that's where you have it wrong...anyone that believe in a God has to believe that the God has a "Divine Plan" and had a hand in their death in the form of destiny ...

You don't have to believe in a divine plan to believe in God. I don't believe in a Divine plan. I lean more towards the clockmaker theory. Not to mention free will.

They could have denied God just like Peter did, but they chose not to.

Either way it doesn't make what you said any less detestable.

gee "Chazster" enough of the blame game before the moderators gods start deleting stuff ....it you feel the need to call me names or blame me do it like everyone else and send it in a freaking e-mail

also a God without a "Divine Plan" is therefore not "all knowing" and therefore not a God ...and create with no purpose and recklessly ...so of course God has a "Divine Plan" ..so forget about that "Free Will' ..like 'creativesoul" once said is it 'Free Will or God's Will

Jim Croce~Lover's Cross

I guess that it was bound to happen
Was just a matter of time
Now I've come to my decision
And its a-one of the painful kind
'Cause now it seems that you wanted a martyr
Just a regular guy wouldn't do
But baby I can't hang upon no lover's cross for you

You really gotta hand it to ya
'Cause girl you really tried
But for ev'ry time that we spent laughin'
There were two times that I cried
And you were tryin' to make me your martyr
And that's the one thing I just couldn't do
'Cause baby I can't hang upon no lover's cross for you

'Cause tables are meant for turnin'
And people are bound to change
And bridges are meant for burnin'
When the people and mem'ries they join aren't the same

Still I hope that you can find another
Who can take what I could not
He'll have to be a super guy
Or maybe a super god
'Cause I never was much of a martyr before
And I ain't 'bout to start nothin' new
And baby I can't hang upon no lover's cross for you

'Cause tables are meant for turnin'
And people are bound to change
And bridges are meant for burnin'
When the people and mem'ries they join aren't the same

But I hope that you can find another
Who can take what I could not
He'll have to be a super guy
Or maybe a super god
'Cause I never was much of a martyr before
And I ain't 'bout to start nothin' new
And baby I can't hang upon no lover's cross for you


Whenever I think of being a martyr I can't help but think of Jim Croce's song. However, when I think of God I think of God as love. Then to me it is different. Because who hasn't been in a relationship and felt like a martyr at some point. I think it has been the turning point in many relationships. You feel like you are giving 100% and feel like they are taking 100%. If one looks at God as the spirit of love rather than the personification of some diety then one can bypass that used feeling of being a martyr.

I am not blaming you for anything. I just find your lack of respect for the dead detestable. Its my personal opinion. If the mods feel like they need to delete something then I say go ahead. I have no problem with it.

All knowing and having a plan are two different things. Just because he knows what you are going to do doesn't mean he is controlling you. I see it more as watching a movie you have already seen.

You can not change my mind on any of this. And I doubt that one who claims to not believe in God can claim to understand him more than those who claim to believe in him.

well "Chazster" do you also condemn me if I lack respect for Hilter and Jim Jones since they are dead and there are people that respect how they died as being Martyrs...which means it's all in the eye of the beholder ... I can also express my opinions about you but I choose to not make it personal and just debate ..get the hint?



but the one that is watching the movie also wrote the script for that movie and created the actors in that movie and those actors better follow that script as if their after-life depended on it and there is no room for ad lib ...for you to say that God doesn't have a "Divine Plan" is to question God's power



well "Chazster"..no one can claim to understand someone's else delusion better than the one that is having the delusion

How come this god and his Jesus do not make it easy for people to believe in this crap instead of people dying for it ??. .

Have you gone bonkers?

What if someone said they would be honored to die for this country? Would you still think they are crazy? It is not crazy for people to be willing to risk their lives for something they believe in. To some people, there are bigger things out their then just their life.

"Chazster"..why would a supposely all powerful being need you to die in his name ..if you can't answer that rationally then you may be bonkers

Noone ever said he needed you to die is his name. God doesn't need you to do anything.

Also, why must you always try to belittle people. You always ask people questions and then say, if you cant answer you must be delusional or you must be crazy etc.

You tend to do this mainly around religion and religion is not rational its spiritual. You feel it you don't think it.

so your answer is religion is not "rational it's spiritual" ..which means you praying to God to die in his name is also not rational but spiritual..well it does answers the bonkers question

Rather..it's the gentleness of the lamb that OVERIDES the danger.