Chapter 12.— Concerning the Opinion of Those Who Have Thought that God is the Soul of the World, and the World is the Body of God.

Ought not men of intelligence, and indeed men of every kind, to be stirred up to examine the nature of this opinion? For there is no need of excellent capacity for this task, that putting away the desire of contention, they may observe that if God is the soul of the world, and the world is as a body to Him, who is the soul, He must be one living being consisting of soul and body, and that this same God is a kind of womb of nature containing all things in Himself, so that the lives and souls of all living things are taken, according to the manner of each one's birth, out of His soul which vivifies that whole mass, and therefore nothing at all remains which is not a part of God. And if this is so, who cannot see what impious and irreligious consequences follow, such as that whatever one may trample, he must trample a part of God, and in slaying any living creature, a part of God must be slaughtered? But I am unwilling to utter all that may occur to those who think of it, yet cannot be spoken without irreverence.

Chapter 13.— Concerning Those Who Assert that Only Rational Animals are Parts of the One God.

But if they contend that only rational animals, such as men, are parts of God, I do not really see how, if the whole world is God, they can separate beasts from being parts of Him. But what need is there of striving about that? Concerning the rational animal himself—that is, man—what more unhappy belief can be entertained than that a part of God is whipped when a boy is whipped? And who, unless he is quite mad, could bear the thought that parts of God can become lascivi ous, iniquitous, impious, and altogether damnable? In brief, why is God angry at those who do not worship Him, since these offenders are parts of Himself? It remains, therefore, that they must say that all the gods have their own lives; that each one lives for himself, and none of them is a part of any one; but that all are to be worshipped,— at least as many as can be known and worshipped; for they are so many it is impossible that all can be so. And of all these, I believe that Jupiter, because he presides as king, is thought by them to have both established and extended the Roman empire. For if he has not done it, what other god do they believe could have attempted so great a work, when they must all be occupied with their own offices and works, nor can one intrude on that of another? Could the kingdom of men then be propagated and increased by the king of the gods?

City of God, Book IV, Chapters 12 & 13

I don’t see any problem with this at all. From my point of view all that Augustine is arguing here is that he thinks god should be so holy and sacred that these thoughts disturb him personally. However, from my point of view this is nothing more that Augustine’s own personal subjective view that he judges certain things to be ‘unholy’.

It’s a totally unwarranted subjectively judgmental position in my humble opinion.

I didn’t bother reading Chapter 13 because I don’t take that position and I don’t see any merit in it to begin with. So whatever Augustine has to say against it is totally irrelevant for me. I simply don’t hold this position to begin with and I don’t even see how such a position could be called ‘pantheism’. But then again, I’m sure there are people who will claim that it is.

I don't know much about Augustine, but it seems like he would prefer that god and its creation remain completely separate so that when he slaughters a calf for dinner he can eat without feeling guilty that he has slaughtered god and is eating the flesh of god.

And yet if he is Catholic, he probably participated in a ritual whereby he drinks to blood and eats the flesh of Christ. He probably has no problem with that.

JB

Not only that but a God who can only forgive sins when a blood sacrifice has been offered to him already has blood on his hands.

I don't see how the idea of God being so 'holy' fits in with a God who demands blood sacrifices before he can forgive disobedience. The religion is already tainted by unholy acts demanded by the very God it claims is so 'holy and sacred'.

It's just another example of inconsistency as far I'm concerned.

Can't have a perfectly holy and divine deity running around asking people to slaughter animals so he can forgive them. That a totally 'unholy' concept right there.

I'm sure I would have some serious disagreements with Mr. Augustine. His demand that the biblical god be considered to be so pious that it's above reproach just doesn't wash as far as I'm concerned. The biblical stories just don't portray that ideal IMHO.

The first part ignores the comprehension that the church is the body and Christ is the head.

But that is the household of faith, which neither man nor angel is entitled to inherently, and naturally.

It is a born again experience of life hid in Christ Jesus alone and to those apprehended by the Spirit of God, being baptized into the death and resurrection of Jesus.




The second part assumes the legitimacy of the first contention that is also outside of Christ.

The world is the womb through which man is given a reconciled part in God's eternal kingdom.

Reconciled in that all men are judged by God acording to all that which is compassionate.

But to the Church of Jesus Christ is given to know the heart of God and learn of His righteousness, and conform our own to His for the expended effort of His unmeritorious grace and mercy poured out upon our souls by His Spirit.

It is a special dispensation given those with an affinity for Jesus Christ, and held in contempt by any that would covet an escape from judgement.

The Judgement is given the highest priority in the heart of any and all that choose Christ over the world, and to that end, the world is the womb through which the breach is repaired.

Bridged, eternally, through fellowship with the sufferings of a meek and lowly and humble anointing given place by God Himself as the firstfruits of many that comprehend the value of the endeavor.


Not at all a cheap shot and not at all a shortcut, but rather, a hunger and thirst for righteousness that is satiated by the Creator to those willing to risk all for the blessings of God in truth and rtighteousness.

I, personally, find that appealing, and still do after having been apprehended to know some of the depth to the riches of God in Christ.

It is still very new every morning.

Walking by faith, hid in Christ, and apprehended by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is an amazing thing, not to be repented of.

There is nowhere better to go.

Just me, people.

Just me.....

I see what Augustine meant, and to the detractors do his queries fall..

peace.

you are way out of context.

it would have been very interesting a debate between you and Mr. Augustine.

How so? I'm just trying to make sense of that ritual.

JB

It would have made the Guinness book of world records for the shortest debate.

JB, you believe we are being farmed as food for aliens. How could you possibly make sense out of..... anything?
Nothing personal, just trying to make sense out of you trying to make sense out of something you view as nonsensical.

Well, not all of us are being farmed as food. The aliens are very picky about what they eat.

Take me for example... They wouldn't dare. I'm too old, too tough, too many toxins, and I would zap them into the next vortex with my ray gun anyway.

Besides, I eat too much chocolate. Chocolate is poison to them from what I understand.

They like children actually. It's not a pretty picture I know.


The Reptile Queen


Here comes the Queen
and her royal court.
Her servants are waiting
within the fort.

No one will stand
in the way of her power.
The time is at hand,
and dark is the hour.

She comes to deliver us,
(and that was the plan.)
Oppression and ruthlessness
Is ruling our land.

With reptile eyes,
Cold blooded and cruel
she spreads the lies
and continues to rule.

Here comes the Queen
with her vampire sons
and they drink the blood
of the little ones.

So watch your children
and hide your gold;
Here comes the Queen
and her blood runs cold.

I knew you wouldn't believe me. That's okay. You couldn't handle the truth.

When the invasion becomes obvious, don't expect to find me to ask for advice.

Of course it may never happen. This is, after all, a subjective reality, and a holographic matrix. Anything is possible.

JB