this is long and pretty much boring, but if you like philosophy tell me what you think.

Lo, are they not full of their ancient way, who say to us, What was God doing before He made heaven and earth? For if, say they, He were unoccupied, and did nothing, why does He not for ever also, and from henceforth, cease from working, as in times past He did? For if any new motion has arisen in God, and a new will, to form a creature which He had never before formed, however can that be a true eternity where there arises a will which was not before? For the will of God is not a creature, but before the creature; because nothing could be created unless the will of the Creator were before it. The will of God, therefore, pertains to His very Substance. But if anything has arisen in the Substance of God which was not before, that Substance is not truly called eternal. But if it was the eternal will of God that the creature should be, why was not the creature also from eternity?
Those who say these things do not as yet understand You, O Thou Wisdom of God, Thou light of souls; not as yet do they understand how these things be made which are made by and in You. They even endeavour to comprehend things eternal; but as yet their heart flies about in the past and future motions of things, and is still wavering. Who shall hold it and fix it, that it may rest a little, and by degrees catch the glory of that everstanding eternity, and compare it with the times which never stand, and see that it is incomparable; and that a long time cannot become long, save from the many motions that pass by, which cannot at the same instant be prolonged; but that in the Eternal nothing passes away, but that the whole is present; but no time is wholly present; and let him see that all time past is forced on by the future, and that all the future follows from the past, and that all, both past and future, is created and issues from that which is always present? Who will hold the heart of man, that it may stand still, and see how the still-standing eternity, itself neither future nor past, utters the times future and past? Can my hand accomplish this, or the hand of my mouth by persuasion bring about a thing so great?
Behold, I answer to him who asks, What was God doing before He made heaven and earth? I answer not, as a certain person is reported to have done facetiously (avoiding the pressure of the question), He was preparing hell, says he, for those who pry into mysteries. It is one thing to perceive, another to laugh—these things I answer not. For more willingly would I have answered, I know not what I know not, than that I should make him a laughing-stock who asks deep things, and gain praise as one who answers false things. But I say that Thou, our God, art the Creator of every creature; and if by the term heaven and earth every creature is understood, I boldly say, That before God made heaven and earth, He made not anything. For if He did, what did He make unless the creature? And would that I knew whatever I desire to know to my advantage, as I know that no creature was made before any creature was made.
But if the roving thought of any one should wander through the images of bygone time, and wonder that You, the God Almighty, and All-creating, and All-sustaining, the Architect of heaven and earth, for innumerable ages refrained from so great a work before You would make it, let him awake and consider that he wonders at false things. For whence could innumerable ages pass by which You did not make, since You are the Author and Creator of all ages? Or what times should those be which were not made by You? Or how should they pass by if they had not been? Since, therefore, You are the Creator of all times, if any time was before You made heaven and earth, why is it said that You refrained from working? For that very time You made, nor could times pass by before You made times. But if before heaven and earth there was no time, why is it asked, What were You doing then? For there was no then when time was not.
Nor dost Thou by time precede time; else wouldest not Thou precede all times. But in the excellency of an ever-present eternity, Thou precedest all times past, and survivest all future times, because they are future, and when they have come they will be past; but You are the same, and Your years shall have no end. Your years neither go nor come; but ours both go and come, that all may come. All Your years stand at once since they do stand; nor were they when departing excluded by coming years, because they pass not away; but all these of ours shall be when all shall cease to be. Your years are one day, and Your day is not daily, but today; because Your today yields not with tomorrow, for neither does it follow yesterday. Your today is eternity; therefore You begat the Co-eternal, to whom You said, This day have I begotten You. You have made all time; and before all times You are, nor in any time was there not time.

CONFESSIONS BY ST. AUGUSTINE BOOK XI. CHAPTERS 10, 11, 12, and 13.

i didn't read it


but i really like it

OKAY OKAY


i got past the first three words

then i didnt understand it

No one knows anything about a god or gods . Who first created whom is just a guess . How can something starting from zero can create anything at all is always open for debate .............
....etc .

Double post . .

thank you for sharing your point of view.

Now is the acceptable day of the Lord.

That sums up Augustine's point.

Those that belabor questioning God's handiwork and revelation of Jesus Christ among us in doubt and unbelief have perused Jesus' words more than they suggest by their obstinance.

There is no doubt that Jesus' words can cut the heart and challenge it to discover itself.

Nothing said by man has made as much a difference as the things that Jesus offered with confidence and authority.

But like so many others, Augustine is really talking more to the Church than the world at large, and for our benefit that know the Lord Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.
His exhortation has appeal to those that seek to articulate that which we know coming from God by the Holy Spirit.
But those same doubters and speculators on the actions of God are nothing more than a distraction to veil the heart's personal secrets from exposure.
The common good of all in Christ is in Christ.

The common good of all yet remaining sovereign in their own professions of free will and exercise are neither when arguing against hypothetical conjecture of God's duty and work.

Man is responsible for man's duty and work before God, and the conscience provides the clarity that displays the heart of one and all.

In Christ, or not, we all display the treasures of our heart in that which is on the tongue, or on the fingers that spell the thoughts of our hearts.

And we all exercise judgement in recognition of one another.

Some find love and friends and some find contempt and discontent ; and we are all guilty of doing both at various times in our lives.

As much as it does us well to be silent before God and quietly breathe in the joy of being, we all have a need t share that which is in our hearts.

Our hearts cry out daily to be at peace with all things in creation and finding place for that in the community of man is an amazing phenomenon.

Paradoxical as life is in the judgements of good and evil, it is still a beautiful mystery hid in Christ that life is not about knowledge of things judged, but in knowledge of the judge, Himself.

Such love will always pour forth.

Such love shall always be shared, breathlessly and without the articulation that we would wish for, but praise and glory and honor are God's.

We can but humbly be thankful and grateful, at best.

Indifferent, at worst.

But it is God which must reveal Himself to each person.

We can bring others into the presence of our peace with God, but we can never be God for any other.

Fellowship, friendship and compassion serve one another best.

Arguing about God being busy or not, accountable or not, responsible or not, misses the point.

Seeking God for God's answer is the only way to settle such debates, and that debate is not between men to judge for themselves, it is between a man and God to know, each in his or her own soul.


In closing, I am remarking on Augustine's perspective given him by God in Christ. That is what it takes to have that perspective of the inquisitive distractons of unregenerate and proud men.

I am comforted by Augustine's words, though.

Thank you, Miguel.

I thought this was clever.

Other than this obvious quip, (that genuinely appears to have been intended as humor by Augustine himself), I see everything else he is staying to actually be the pantheistic view of God. (at least as I understand the pantheistic view)

Augustine seems to be describing the notion that for God there is no time, and that all that exists is 'now'.

I'm in total agreement with this view. But this view doesn't differ from the pantheistic view. It's not specific to the biblical view, and in some ways the biblical view doesn't even allow for it, but I'm truly not interested in getting into that debate. It' simply isn't worth my 'now'.

Actually this idea that 'now' is all that exists kind of flies in the face of an eternal heaven or hell. 'Now' is eternity.

I truly see this writing of Augustine to be more supportive of a pantheistic view of nature, than a biblical view.

But that's just my own person thoughts, and I'm not interested in debating it. If other people feel differently more power to them.

God does not change Man, but, rather, Man changes Gods.

u should be a catholic James.

Miguel,

shhhh....

he will hear you.

As a pantheist, he must be.

I better duck now.

peace.

If God was doing nothing before he created heaven and earth, now that heaven and earth have been created what would stop him from doing nothing henceforth?

The implication:
Did God just make heaven and earth and quit? If so, what does that say about eternity? What is he doing now? Has he stopped working?

The writer wants to suggest, I think, that if God is eternal and unchanging, then he is always creating, before he created heaven and earth and shall always continue to create things.




Eternity is forever constant, and the same. What IS always has been and always will be. There can be nothing new arising within eternity that is not already there because there is no time, no before and after.




Life arises from God. (spirit, consciousness etc.)




Everything that exists within the substance of god, has always existed. If anything new arises withing the substance (body) of god, that substance is not eternal, because eternal things have always been and always will be.



He is questioning the nature of eternity vs the nature of time and space.




Humans don't understand that god creates itself and that they are within the body of god.



Humans don't understand eternity because they are wrapped up in the illusion of Time and space.




Time and space does not exist and everything exists NOW. Only the motions pass by, and all things arise from and within the eternal Now which is always present and unchanging.




Who can get man to be still present in the eternal now, so that they can see and know that time and space arises from eternity?




He is saying that before heaven and earth were created, there was no time and space and the question about what god was doing "before" that is a moot point because there was no "before" because there was no time. Time and space exist within the eternal present.



Its basically all about the baffling idea of how time and space dwell within the eternal now.

I think.


JB

Wouldee, That one statement was perfect. You need not have said one more word.

I'll reword it:

NOW is the acceptable day of Source.

It's all about eternity.

Abra, that's what I got out of it.... but he was really a bit too wordy for my tastes.

JB

I have never heard some non sense like that : poor , poor man can change so little in a long ,long time . Weak , weak man is approaching neglect in a so complex world .

Double post for some stupid reasons that I ignore .

u go figure how hard was for me to understand this in english.

Quis, quid, ubi, quibus auxiliis, cur, quomodo, quando?

hmmm??? are you talking diaper's or mind's???

There's always a comedian! I didn't say "God's".