No I didn't claim that god could commit evil, I said all things are created by god, therefore he created the evil in us as well. Probably worded poorly. I also said that the bible says (not me) "an evil spirit from the lord" which implies that yes, god can commit acts of evil, I didn't say he actually did, but I asked that the idea be contemplated. I've also stated that evil is a concept of man, not god, but you didn't work that in either. And I also talked of acceptence, tolerance, patience and humility, but those also fell on deaf ears.

I wonder, do you spend as much time contemplating the message of the scripture as you do belittling the cursery understanding others might have of the scripture. I'll admit it, I'm just poking the bear with a stick. I could care less about whether anyone wins or loses todays arguement, but I will not just sit here and let one side of the arguement run roughshod over the other. Someone has to present the counter-points.

I could bring a bible to work and just start laying out all of the nice little highlighted bits I have in there. Those are the ones I have to discuss with a minister, because your precious bible contradicts itself throughout. I of course use memory and logic when writing on here, so I might make an error or two (such as in the ten commandents time line). Of course I won't debate the validity of the time line in the book itself because that's way too big of an arguement. I don't sit around looking through it trying to make another person look bad. And if I've offended your beliefs through my own, I do apologize.

Try this one on though, go to leviticus and read the story of Jeptah. You'll find that the christian god is a blood god. For God demanded the sacrifice of the daughter of Jeptah, in payment for allowing Jeptah to defeat his enemies. That's right, human blood and flesh sacrificed to the god of Isreal. Not her virginity as the catholic church claims (the entire basis behind nuns I imagine), she lamented because she would die without child.

Man...see when I correct you, you will just complain that I corrected you.

Jephtha vowed that if he won a battle, he would sacrifice whomever or whatever was to first come out of his door when he got home. Note: God didn't demand anything, Jephtha made the promise on his own. When Jephtha got home, his daughter ran out to greet him. Jephtha decided to sacrifice his daughter to God (even though God never asked for or allowed human sacrifices) rather than break his promise to God.

You can read the full story in Judges 10-11.

Just making an observation here...but you don't sound like a Christian to me. If the Bible contradicts itself, then there is no reason to be a Christian. The Bible is the foundation of Christianity, we only know of Jesus' life and teachings from the Bible. If the Bible cannot be trusted, then how do we know what parts of the Bible can be trusted?

a better question on jeptah would be - why would god allow jeptah to kill an innocent virgin daughter, what was her crime or disobedience to god.? none that i can see?

"The Dream"

When the white eagle of the North is flying overhead
The browns, reds and golds of autumn lie in the gutter, dead.
Remember then, that summer birds with wings of fire flaying
Came to witness springs new hope, born of leaves decaying.
Just as new life will come from death,
love will come at leisure.
Love of love, love of life and giving without measure
Gives in return a wonderous yearn of a promise almost seen.

Live hand-in-hand & together we'll stand
on the threshold of a dream.

I'm pretty sure the god your refer to could have made anything come out of that house. A cat, dog, chicken, sheep, this is why you don't make blind promises in general. And don't forget, god had shown the judgement to stop a sacrifice of this calibur before (Issac), but this time chose not too. Once again, just for contemplation.

Thanks for the correction to Judges and not Leviticus, as I said, don't have one in front of me. It is one of the stranger stories in the bible if you ask me. And I didn't mean to come off as agruementative when giving the compliment on the correction. I did need it, having forgotten that Moses left Aaron in charge while the commandments were being "written." (I doubt god used a pencil or pen, so not quite certain if it can be called writing)

It's funny, I don't sound like a christian to you, but you don't sound like one to me either. I will admit, when in a blog like this, I do try to step out of "myself" to look at a broader view, might have something to do with it. And I did admit to arguing for the opposite side today.

However, you may be right. Even though I'm a christian, I do not believe I will be going to heavan when the final trumpet is blown. I've committed too much evil before the face of god to be forgiven. I do believe in the message of the bible, but do not believe the written message in the book by my bed or the one on my coffee table are law, or even an 100% accurate description of the past. I'm sure you've seen me on threads refering to the fact that it has been translated 5 times from it's original language, after it was written down from an oral tradition.

So I don't believe that the bible is an end all of spirituality. The Tao E-Ching had some interesting stuff in it too, and I think the buddhists have some gems packed away in their beliefs as well. The thing about me is, as a christian, I believe in the One God. So by my extended logic, all religions that worship one god, must be worshiping mine, but in a different way.

Actually, I think the Native American concept of the Great Spirit is a purer extent of christianity than most churches I've been in.

http://www.beatlestube.net/video.php?title=Within%20You%20Without%20You





Within you / Without you


by George Harrison


We were talking
about the space between us all
and people who hide themselves
behind a wall of illusion
never glimpse the truth
then it's far too late
when they pass away

We were talking
about the love we all could share
When we find it
to try our best to hold it there
with our love, with our love
we could save the world
if they only knew

Try to realize it's all within yourself
no one else can make you change
And to see you're really only very small
and life flows on within you and without you

We were talking
about the love that's gone so cold
and the people who gain the world
and lose their soul
They don't know, they can't see
Are you one of them

When you've seen beyond yourself
then you may find
peace of mind is waiting there
And the time will come
when you see we're all one
and life flows on within you and without you

I believe this is meant to be a moving speech calling good Christians to reclaim the propoganda and proffessed views of their own religion denouncing those contradictory views that are against the following of Christ.

It may have been better worded by stating that it is the cornerstone of what media is using claiming as Christian faith in order to propogate war, hatred, seperatism, and cultural domination.

Although I can see the same holes in the original post if viewed line by line and nitpicked I do think it did a wonderful job of conveying a widespread sentiment by some Christians and many non Christians. I personally believe that true Christians should speak out and if possible (probably not considering the pro war finances being poured into the propogation of these imposters) retake the forefront of Christianity and teach Christianity rather than the blind following of Christian speakers.

Well said blackbird.

[quote} So I don't believe that the bible is an end all of spirituality. The Tao E-Ching had some interesting stuff in it too, and I think the buddhists have some gems packed away in their beliefs as well. The thing about me is, as a christian, I believe in the One God. So by my extended logic, all religions that worship one god, must be worshiping mine, but in a different way.

Actually, I think the Native American concept of the Great Spirit is a purer extent of christianity
than most churches I've been in. "







well said, < Siddhartha > !!!


have you read that book, by Hermann Hesse?


I love it and have read it many times...




i love the Native American beliefs, too

& have read quite a few of their quotes and writings

& I've also known some very spiritual People

from very real, very loving Christian Churches, too



:

One point that has repeatedly been brought to light on these threads that many of us believe contradicts this statement.

In essense althought many Christians believe that the bible is the foundation of Christianity many of us believe that CHRIST is the foundation of Christianity and that a true Christian should follow the teachings of Christ rather than the bible. Although this could be seen as a paradox it is completely accurate when one considers what a Christian is supposed to be, and that it clarifies if there is a bible passage that contradicts the teachings of Christ that the teachings of Christ should be considered to hold precidence.

The bible was written by imperfect men. The Word of of God is just that but the bible is the word of men. A Christian should follow the lessons of Christ instead of the word of men. This is what Christian is supposed to mean.

I would like to thank all of the good Christians who have spoken here for your many wonderful statements concerning right, love, understanding, the following of Christ, and the fair treatment of your brothers and sisters Christian or not.

Rather than flood this area with multiple entries playing catch up I choose to post this one in order to spare readers playing catch up.

So far as the argument concerning God and evil I would have to say my teachings both Christian and otherwise examining the bible and Christian texts lead one to believe that IF the god of the Hebrews created all in existence that includes evil. Being omnipitant in nature and knowing the outcome of things contradicts the concept of God repenting so I see the whole argument as one that is beyond solving.

I have been called Shamanistic, Pagan, Wiccan, Christian, and told that my beliefs mirror that of a Buhdist in many ways. Labels fail to identify who a person is in reality it simply helps others make mental leaps trying to define another person for their own convenience.

So far as the statement that we all hate Christians I believe it is more accurate to say we hate the sin of people following the ways of hatred and refusing to follow lessons of Christ while persecuting us, insulting us, or demeaning us because we are non Christian.

Roamingorator I rather enjoyed both of your long posts concerning your general stance they were spectacular!

I think this is a common problem with all organized religions.

I do wonder why and i know it is a belief held by many. that if something seems to contradict itself then we must adhere to the teachings of messiah. this would make since if we through out what made our messiah the lamb of Yahweh. Pauls writing are grosely misunderstood and even in his day the disciples were warned of people twisting what he said to thier own destruction. Yet Yahshua was sinless for keeping the law perfectly. now some will say he sacraficed. personally I can not find that mentioned. So if Yahshua kept the law perfectly and he also said on the sermon on the mount. "be perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect" now i would have to conclude that if at tis time he refers to his father as perfect and Yahshua was The Lamb of Yahweh by keeping the Law perfect. This is the only way the death penalty could be annulled and several other things.Also thier was no new covenant then and the converts in acts were told to stay away from 4 things because Moses is taught in every city every sabbath. that if we have anything that seems to contradict we must go back to the Law and the prophets which Yahshua said would never end. We can see that in Rev 22.That all misunderstandings must go back to Moses and the prophets. I see no other way to interpret the Spirit of the law..Blessings...Miles

God never talked to Jephtha, God never made plans or promises to Jephtha. Jephtha was allowed to do as he wanted, just as we all can. Jephtha knew before he made the promise that he shouldn't, he surely worried that his wife or child might come out of his home first and he had the ability to not sacrifice his daughter. There is no reasonable way that you can blame God for the actions of Jephtha or any of God's other free moral creations. God allows his creations to sin as they will and remains patiently waiting for their repentance, it's God right to decide when he will no longer be patient.

you know another way to look at this is not how powerful god is, but rather the weakness the exists in men, who are such putzes that they allow god to do whatever god wants to with them....

We control our own actions. God didn't cause Jephtha to make that promise and he didn't cause the girl to come out of the house. We are each responsible for our own actions.



I'm not. I thought I was, but I have known I'm not for several months.



You aren't saved by how much good or evil you have done.

Jesus taught using the Tanakh (Old Testament). I am unaware of any contradictions between what Jesus taught and the Old Testament.

Amen Spider



we are saved by grace


and not by works...


lest any man should boast ....




Jamie


The enemy would try to tell you lies


& lay guilt trips on you ~ saying to you


that you are too bad to be forgiven...


that is Sooooooo <<< Not True >>> !!!

AMEN!