In the case of an organism that has no eyes "watchful" does not apply. Alert to avoid danger applies.

"vigilance in observing"

means:

"alert in the sensing of vibrations"

("observation" does not have to be by way of sight, but simply the sensing of vibrations.)


Amoebas sense vibrations because they are aware.

You stated they were not aware.

I believe you are wrong.



JB

Awareness



Experience is required for awareness, as is the alertness in drawing inferences from such experience.


inference...




James,

Get off the horse, my friend, I already agreed with my earlier mistaken definition...

And according to Webster, perceiving requires the attaining of awareness.

So then if perceiving and awareness go hand in hand, as Webster suggests... it requires experience to infer from...

Yes?

So then, without experience there is neither?




JB...

You think an amoeba can infer with all of those brain cells it has which are required for reasoning?

I think I am just stupid...

Peace and love to you both...

Perhaps then, a computer nor an amoeba can have either?



Zat mean we all lose?

Clearly these terms need re-defined!!!



Damn Webster, trumped us all...

we are thinking machines. we are chemical and mechanical
and we think. our programming is indeterminate. it amounts
to the following instructions:

1. perceive and enjoy
2. procreate

not there is a potential conflict in our two lines of
computer code...so, it is possible in some individuals
for the perceive and enjoy to override the procreate
and vice-versa depending on the perception.

we also program ourselves throughout our development
adding various layers of subtlety to elaborate these
two directives in increasingly elaborate detailing
through our experience. now that's what i call artificial
intelligence. you know?



happy friday the 13th

I have long had debates with vegans about that with their better than thou attitudes which can be likened to unscrupulous bible thumpers.

All living things possess life. To survive, we kill. Exceptions would be drinking milk ect but even then are we stealing that milk from a newborn that needs it?

To assume that it is more acceptable to kill a plant because it's blood (juice or sap) is different, or because it is unable to scream, squeel, or run away is presumptious.

As a joke a vegan once brutally ate a carrot with her mouth open showing the crushing of the carrot as if it was fagile flesh and it made a rather appropriate demonstration.

Life is life, to survive we take life. That is it, end of story.

Oh and Abra I think Desire is more complicated than one might think.

A basic survival desire such as eating, needing power, fuel, ect would be a survival instinct rather than desire. If any creation was created basic self survival hard wired programming should be considered instinct rather than desire.

Desire would be for things wanted rather than needed. For instance if the creation came to feel such as Frankenstein did, decided it had no place in the world because it was different, and wrote programming to overide it's instinct and stop plugging itself in THAT could be considered personal desire.

Just my thoughts...

I agree, there is a differnce. And I never truly meant to imply otherwise, sorry if I had. I was thinking in terms of actually building an android from scratch. You'd have to build in some basic 'desires' which you perfer to call 'instincts'. Like hunger for example.

It would be easy to program a computer to sense when it is hungry and act on that sensations. Laptop computers already do this. They sense that their own battery is low and they tell the operator that they need to be recharged. They can even give an early warning saying things like, "I'm getting hungry, you have 5 mintues to save your work before I pass out".

Clearly the computer is not 'aware' of what it's saying or 'feeling'. That's almost a redunant thing to say, "It doens't feel what it senses?". If it doesn't 'feel' it then how can it 'sense'?

Clearly the words we use are far too abstract to get to the meat of these kinds of issues.

However, my only real point on the issue of building an android is that we need to start somewhere. And starting with building basic instincts is a good place to start if you want a machine to ultimately end up with 'desire'.

It will most likely first 'learn' to 'desire' what it needs. And then from there it may expand to begin to desire what it doesn't 'need'.

Even people often don't know why they make choices. If someone goes into a waiting room and sits down in a particular chair and you ask them why they chose that chair, they may not be able to give a reason. They might just say, "I don't know. I had to sit down and I just sat in one arbitrarily" A random choice not based on desire.

On the other hand if someone goes into a movie theater and chooses a seat and you ask them why they choose the seat they may said, "Because I can get the best view from here"

That indicates that they have a desire to get the best view.

But a robot might do the same thing. Especially if it is 'aware' that is going to need to be looking at the screen to watch a movie.

I think 'desire' can grow from pragmatic applications. When it crosses over to become lust is hard to say.

A robot would need to exhibit lust to become fully human.

I have great respect for Webster. I have found more spiritual wisdom and answers in the Webster Dictionary than in the Bible... truly, I am not being sarcastic.

I agree with Webster that awareness is required (first) to perceive anything.

That would mean that to perceive means a lot more than simply collecting or sensing information. It includes as you wrote:

"Aware implies vigilance in observing or alertness in drawing inferences from what one experiences..."

You must first be aware and alert in order to experience anything.



Not exactly.

Awareness comes first, then the perceiving. That perception and the act of inferring is the experience.





It infers what it needs to infer. It is aware, it perceives, and it reacts to vibrations. ~~ That is the experience.

If there are no other vibrations interacting with it,(highly unlikely) it remains unaffected and it has no experience, but it is still aware, which means it is vigilant and alert to any vibration that might happen along.

JB

Oh I think we are on the same page but...

So far as the basic instinct desire I think it should be fully conscious and unconscious....such as...If it has let's say an eight hour battery...it should want bit of a charge around 4 hours runtime left. (Remember rather than a useful creation, we are going for a creation more likely to evolve into sentience). Now the desire to eat at this point would be a light one, and would have to use an algorythem to compare how hungry it is to how important what it is doing is with full knowledge of how long it would take it to get to a power source.

At three hours left the balance should have shifted to where rather than a slight awareness that it is half depleted it is not consciously aware that it has three hours left.

Two hours, a primary awareness that is constant and hard for the creation to ignore.

At one hour it would have to continuously put high proiority flags on what it was doing to avoid plugging in.

At thirty minutes it would be forced by the instinct program to plug in, and the only way to avoid this would be to re-write it's own instinct program which it would instintually know to do only if death was desired.

This would simulate the food cycle prossess that we and animals share on a very short time frame. I believe this may help speed it along towards sentience because it would have to consciously plug in to live just as we must eat.

I personally believe for this to work well it has to have a balance, something that it desires other than plugging in that could distract it. Some kind of task or activity that is important to the creation so that it is reluctant to stop so it can go plug in. It should like it enough so that it's likely to hit that one hour mark quite often, and maybe go past that to thirty minutes until it overides and goes to plug in with a passion like someone in an eating frenzy.

You're hired!

Give this man a programming job!

You would definitely be one of the team leaders on the "I AM" project.

You fully understand what needs to be accomplished, and how to go about creating situations where it can be 'self-accomplished' or 'self-realized' by a self-programming robot that can learn.

Have you taken courses in AI or worked with AI before?

LMAO no....

I just "get it". I seem to know how a lot of things work, and basically if you do have an I AM team full of programmers you also need a psychologist that understands infant development. However, since psychologists might not like the whole sentience thing considering the robot insane you have to fire them halfway through and replace them with a spiritualigist or theological philosopher to finish the job.

LMAO

Well you certainly do “get it”, and you might be surprised how many actual computer programmers don’t “get it”!

They learn how to write code and call themselves ‘programmers’ but in truth they aren’t very good programmers at all.

You could probably still lead a team of ‘code writers’ and successfully program a computer without even bothering to learn how to write they actual code yourself. All you would need to do is write the flowcharts and define the goals of the algorithms. Then the code writers would write the actual code.

A lot of people have no clue of the difference between a good programmer, and a code writer.

You don’t need to learn traditional “computer programming” to program a computer if you have someone who can write the code for you. All you need to do is tell the code writers specifically what goals you need accomplished.

So you may actually be one of the world’s greatest “computer programmers’ and not even realize it!

Unfortunately, because of how our society is structured no one would ever hire you to program a computer because you have no ‘code writing’ experienced.

What a terrible shame! You’re talents are going to waste just because you don’t have the ‘credentials’ that are deemed necessary for the job.

Seriously, I can see that you know what needs to be done. You would definitely be a big help on such a project. I’d demand they put you on the “I AM” team.

In fact, this is one thing that would bother me tremendously about being hired for such a project. I would NEED people like you working on it! People who don’t have the proper credentials but who know what needs to be done.

If all they gave me to work with was the traditionally educated ‘code writers’ they might not be all that helpful. I mean, sure we’d need them too for writing the actual code, no doubt about that. But the actual “program” might be better written by people who have no clue of how to even write computer code.

Dear Jeannie,

A few lives ago I told you that I could build you a sentient android if you would be kind enough to fund me with billions of dollars. I told you that I could accomplish this task within a year's time producing a crude infant android that would show signs of sentience and have the capability to grow intellectually as a self-learning machine.

However, it has recently been brought to my attention that it could potentially take me a year just to round up the proper engineers, scientists and hand-drumming rogues that would be necessary to form a sentient team who's own capabilities would be up to the challenge.

So with this in mind I hope you can forgive me if I change my offer from one year to two years. One year just to build and organize the team that will design the beast, and then a year to create the actual sentient android.

My sincerest apologies if this has created any inconveniences for you in any way.

Your Publicly Secret Besotted Admirer,
James

If you are truly serious, I could work on getting the funding. I would need a pretty detailed outline of the work to be done.

Of course this could be a very dangerous project in the wrong hands.

JB

In all seriousness, had you caught me when I was in my 30's I might have been more inclined to do it. Although I must confess the technologies have come a LONG WAY in the intervening 30 years!

I was borderline thinking I could do it 30 years ago. With today's technology it's almost a shoe-in.

The bulk of the money would be the salaries for the teams engineers. The actual parts to build the android wouldn't be all that expensive. Of course then there would be the facility (or lab) overhead. Obviously (or maybe not so obviously) I would need several computer labs. At least six or seven. They could all be in the same building of course. I could probably get by with only six (there are reasons why they are separate labs or teams). In fact they would be,...

The "I AM Lab" - You might think of this as building the equivalent of the pineal gland.
The "Subconscious Lab" - This would be the rest of the brain
The "Interface Lab" - This team works on the central nervous system
The "Instincts Lab" - This team is responsible for building all the instinct microcontrollers.
The "I FEEL Lab" - This team is responsible for building the higher-level sensors

The reason they would be separate labs and separate teams is because it makes it much easier for me personally to keep track of what each team is doing. I think it also helps each team to focus better on their individual goals. Obviously they are all working on the same android. Ultimately they are one massive team. There will be much interaction and communication between the teams and in the end they will all have contributed to the single finished android.

The additional seventh lab may not be absolutely necessary but I think it could potentially be extremely useful and it would be the "Nanotechnology Lab". These would be engineers who are well educated and hopefully experienced in nanotechnology. Their usefulness could be paramount for all of the other teams. Their main contribution would be in coming up with suggestions and ideas for helping all the other labs to miniaturize their contributions. So this would be more of a pragmatically useful lab than a necessary component.

Those are just the computer labs. I could see each lab being run by at lease five GOOD engineers (50 would be better). I would tell them what they each need to accomplish. I could also see each lab contain about 25 or 30 technicians or more. We can be expecting the engineers to build all this stuff without technicians. I tell the engineers what they need to build, they take it back to their labs and have their technicians build it. An of course that whole process is going to require give-and-take. No one ever just does what they are told.

In addition to the computer labs I would need the following addition mechanical and chemical labs.

The "Skeletal Lab" - need I say more? Clearly the main frame (the bones of the android)
The "Synthetics Lab", this would be for making materials like skin, tendons, etc.
The "Actuators Lab", making the muscles.
The "Stomach Lab", this would be the power supply of the android not necessarily an actual stomach.

Each of these labs would also required about 5 engineers each with their own teams of about 30 technicians each.

I think I could build it the above personnel (and labs). Of course they would all need tools, supplies, and materials too.

So that's 10 labs, with 5 engineers each, plus 30 technicians each. That comes out to 350 employees @ approximately $100,000 yearly salary each (rounding off, Engineers would get more, technician less), so that comes out to 35 million dollars in salaries, for the first year. And we haven't even counted the labs, equipment, and supplies. Not to mention that we'd probably need an office crew of secretaries, to help with things like ordering supplies, filing reports, and general paper keeping chores. And lets not forget the accounting and payroll department.

Rounding off, I'd say that we'd need a minimum of 100 million dollars just to get the project up and running. We could probably cut back on the number of technicians if we absolute had to. However, each team as a LOT to do. so even at 30 technicians each they would probably be working in groups of 5 technicians each, on individual sub-projects within their lab. So it would be hard to cut down much. I think what I proposed here would be a pretty minimal request, especially if we're expecting results in one year's time. Cut back on the staff, and it may take longer to build it.

This is by no means an actual "proposal". I just ripped this off the top of my head sitting here. If I were going to actually propose a genuine project of this size in a serious way I would need to spend some serious effort creating a genuine proposal.

In all honesty though, I'm not sure if I really feel up to this in my current state of health. I wouldn't do much other than just meet with the engineers periodically and see how they are coming along. I'd probably hang out most in the "I AM" lab because that's where the secret to the success of the project ultimately lies.

And yes, it probably would be a two-year project. The first year would just be trying to get the teams educated and coordinated. It really wouldn't be until the second year before the project would really begin to get underway. But they would actually star on it right away. It's just that the first year probably wouldn't be all that productive. It would take the teams about a year to really settle in before they could fully understand precisely what it is they are building.

By the way. I don't claim to have the whole thing figured out. I'm not going to give these engineers blueprints. I'm going to tell them what I want them to build and work with them to come up with the best possible way to achieve the goal.

Although I do have a whole lot of detailed suggestions for every one of these teams.

The team that worries me the most (you might find surprising) is "The Stomach Team". They need to come up with an awesome power supply. Something that can generate a LOT of power, is very small, not real heavy, and LASTS, or is at least easily and quickly refuelable.

An elecric battery isn't going to do. An internal combustion engine might do, but that could be awkward. A miniature nuclear generator would be great!

But not practical.

A power umbilical cord is an option for the early going, but that would clearly be restrictive.

I'm not sure what they could come up with. Trying to replicate something similar to the metabolism of a human body is feasible, but this would require that all of the labs incorporate this same technology into their projects. It's feasible, but would almost be a feat in itself.

Another option would be to build the android to be the size and shape of a horse and expect it to spend most of it's 'life' outdoors. Then it's "stomach" could be replaced with a small autombile engine and it would have ample power.

Then we'd have to call the andriod (Mr. Ed, the talking horse).

Of course, we could always build it to look like a Centaur.

People also won't be very impress with an andriod that looks like a horse. Funny how people are, they will take it more seriously if it actually looks like a human being.

In theory we could make it look like a Tyranosaurus Rex. It could become perfectly sentient and lovable, and everyone would still run from it or shoot at it.

I think if what you propose is possible, you can rest assured that it is being done or has already been done. I think that there exists technology (in use) that is so far advanced it cannot even be understood by the majority of humans an a lot of it is just sitting there waiting for humans to catch up to it and figure it out. There are some humans who do understand how it works but they can't make anyone else understand it so it goes nowhere or it goes underground.

JB

Will you two get a room already? GAWD!