Out of graciousness I willa ccept you did not mean to attack. However, I will not accep the excuse of "stearing off topic". I did not "run with the illegals" as you so well put it. The issue of illegals had been mentioned prior to my even using them as an example. As a reasoning behind why the id law was first instated int he first place. I merely maintained that it was not a bad idea to use it that way, as it does not detract from a citizens rights or priviledges.

And to answer a comment you made earlier, that I missed, you stated"...stay out of my home...". I have not once netered your abode, nor would I be interested. I hae not once suggested anythign to do with anyone lese entering your place of dwelling. I am refferring to id in public places.

what a lot of people do not understand, is that you give up some of your rights when you step out your door and into public, because you are now in a public area, which means the group needs to get along. not everyone conforming to everyone elses wishes.

Daniel there is no law mandating we must walk with identification.

Because my fourth assures me that I have a right to not be subjected to unreasonable searches and Seizures.

By giving this stupid card out, we will be one step from seeing the "Show me your papers" Authoritarianism enacted right here in this country.

Stupid cards aren't going to stop illegal immigration anyways, those things aren't fool proof and can be acquired via illegal means.

Amendment IV.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Now, do we the people get decide what is reasonable or are we just going to let Government make that call... It all depends on how much you value this particular amendment, it's not like things like no knock search warrants and sneak and peek haven't eroded it already.

Because my fourth assures me that I have a right to not be subjected to unreasonable searches and Seizures.

By giving this stupid card out, we will be one step from seeing the "Show me your papers" Authoritarianism enacted right here in this country.

Stupid cards aren't going to stop illegal immigration anyways, those things aren't fool proof and can be acquired via illegal means.

Amendment IV.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses,
papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures,
shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable
cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing
the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Now, do we the people get decide what is reasonable or are we just going to let Government make that call... It all depends on how much you value this particular amendment, it's not like things like no knock search warrants and sneak and peek haven't eroded it already.

Ok, so as long as the officer in question has a reason to ask you for id, then it is not unreasonable. Remember folks, it is perfectly legal for a cop to stop cars at random and ask for proof of license, registraion and insurance, without having a reason other than they have not stopped someone in a while. That being the case, there woudl be no illegality of doing it when you are not driving.
Andyou are right war, nothing is full proof. Even if we were to go the route of putting to death all illegal aliens when found, they would still keep coming. So we have to do what we can with what we have available without losing site of our own beliefs and humanity.

operating a vehicle is not a constitutional right, there is a huge difference. You give up that right to not produce id when you get behind the wheel. He who would trade freedom for security deserves neither. who said that again?

Benjamin Franklin said it as you well know. And I agree with that statement. What I do not agree with however is the idea that you are giving up any type of freedom by being required to produce a legal id card if asked while out in public. Having said id card on you does not prohibit you from doing anything you would normally do if you did not have it. It does not prevent you from being able to go out and have a beer (provided you are legal age, lol). It does not prevent you fromgoing to a block party. It does not prevent you from going out to dinner or to hte movies, or to the beach.
If you can name one right it would prevent, then I will drop the entire debate imediately. And fair warnign, the fourth amendmant is not violated by haviong a card on you, so long as the officer inquestio has a legitimate reason for asking for it (which could be as simple as showqing proof that you have the legal right to be where you are at; i.e in a bar).

Good Luck.

I disagree, The Amendment clearly states that I have the right to be secure in my papers and effects from unreasonable searches and seizures.
It's not the having the card on me, that would violate the fourth, it's the idea that a public servant would have the authority to demand I present one on command. Land of the free, not home of the slave.
Once again it comes down to what is or isn't unreasonable and who gets to make that call.

I will take this one step further than you sir. Who would issue such a card? That is right, the governement. Who has a vested interest in having this information, my fellow citizens, no, the government. I used to be a leo, I know how "probable cause" can be used in the hands of our trusted "public servants". Look at this video for example, those are "trusted public servants". To make it easier why don't they just tattoo our ssn on our forearms........YOUR PAPERS, SHOW US YOUR PAPERS! I have a new passport, I don't carry it on me at all times like I did my old one, you know why? Each one of the new passports is imbedded with a microchip.I ripped the onstar out of my truck the day I bought it, you know why? On star is a two way radio and tracking device that I do not have the power to shut off. I only use certain cellphones, you know why? Some of them have the ability to have their microphone turned on when the phone is not in use, and others can still be tracked when the power is "off". I know, I sound like a fringe element guy, I value my privacy above all else. If I go for a stroll on the beach I should not have to take a collar with me for fear of being questioned by the gestapo because I am out late. If I want to go see a movie some 2 bit mall police should not be able to come look over my id to have my address if he finds my date atractive. There are so many ways for this to be abused it is not even funny. What cracks me up is communism is the most fair form of government if it worked. You kow why it doesn't work? The corruption of the people in charge, just like every other government model out there. Government is a necessary evil, it is not the salvation of man from their daily plight

oh, and everything you just mentioned is absolutely true and easily proven.

You know war you and I disagree on a lot of things in this country, but we do agree on a lot as well. I told dragoness awhile back that I respected her, she thought I was being cynical, but i wasn't. I am a harsh person on a lot of things, and a person like me could not run this country. It takes a person who can listen to both sides and rule from a neutral position. The far left, and the far right both have their place, we balance each other out. I can respect a persons beliefs even if i don't agree with them. Thank you for being a outspoken proponent of what you believe, that goes to EVERYONE who makes their voice heard, and celebrates their rights as free men and women

and this one,, I like them both equally!




Damn Democrats

I refuse to give up my right to say,


Damn Republicans