I think it all boils down to trust. I've had many counseling relationships in the last ten years or so, and only one out of eight was actually helpful.

If you aren't ready to work through your stuff, therapy can be harmful.

If you can't trust your therapist with your psyche, then therapy can turn destructive.

That sounds like I'm putting it all on the individual, but it's a two-way street. Like in any good relationship, it takes a lot of work to find the right person to be there for you.

Me.

I get frustrated at Baptist funerals as well (I was raised in the South and almost all of my family is Baptist--my nuclear family is the oddball). But it's part of their religious beliefs--they have to use every opportunity possible to get people to acknowledge God. I don't like how it's typically done (especially at funerals), but I know it's important to that denomination. And if you're at a funeral of a Baptist, the family is probably expecting that anyway.

Which is all off-topic from the religion in schools issue.

When I read the thread title, I thought you were discussing *teaching* religion in public schools. So far you've only talked about prayer. What do you think of having religion courses offered in high schools?

I think I fit into a "third" option.

I think that the Bible was divinely inspired, not divinely dictated, and there is a rather large difference between the two. In one, the reader can witness the ways in which the writer(s) viewed God moving in their lives. In the other, you have the "Bible dropped from the sky" version, which just simply isn't the case.

I think that God works through us and within us in our brokenness, because we all have faults. That doesn't make God's work any less valid because we aren't perfect. It just means that we're human. That shows in the Bible, and I personally find that appealing. The message is that God is with us even as we fall short of the goal, that God stands beside us and dwells among us and loves us just as we are. To see evidence of faulty humans bumbling around in the biblical texts only reassures me as I too bumble through life, celebrating joys and facing challenges.

I also think that we're being a bit anachronistic here. Gender equality was not something debatable in the Hebrew culture (and in many others of that time period). While it is sad that texts have been used and misused to "put women in their place" and that women faced such trials then, we have to remember that this was normal for them. They (men and women) knew nothing different in that particular culture. It's not making excuses and it's not dismissing the gravity of women's rights (or lack thereof). It's just understanding from where these people wrote. They could not envision the changes that would take place two thousand plus years down the road.

I'm not trying to argue anything here, and if that is what is happening, then I'll stop posting. I simply want to make clear another position that Christian women have when they relate to their faith. There are always more than two ways to look at something. Here is part of mine.

I can totally agree with you--the Bible is often a stumbling block to the faith even as its writers seek to build up that faith.

I personally take all stories and understand them in their context. You can't read any of the stories in the Bible out of context and expect to have a decent grasp of what they are trying to say. The Bible isn't a collection of dead texts. They all live and breathe within the cultures of their times.

I think perhaps the objections being raised here are not about God but about the humanness the Bible carries in its pages. Just my thoughts.

So I don't know about changes so extreme that species become something else entirely, but, if I understand evolution correctly, this is a very slow process, right?

For instance humans have evolved in the last 200 (or 500) years. Look at the height differences! If you go back thousands of years you have the different skin tones that developed to compensate for differing climates. A neurologist in California (I believe UC Berkeley, but could be wrong) is working with a team and publishing his findings on human brain evolution since the dawn of the computer age. His findings are really interesting and are highly regarded. I found the article in a Christian magazine published for people in ministry professions. (If you're interested I'll try to find the article again.)

Is this thread just about debating the theory of evolution from amoeba to primate to humanoid (gross exaggeration, I know). Or are we debating all evolution, including the kind that happens every century?

Krisma,

As a female church worker, I have struggled a lot with some of the same issues you seem to be talking about here. I'm a bit of a nerd, so when I hit a road block, I turn to research to figure things out. You might be interested to know that, on the scholarly level, there is fairly good evidence that the Corinthians passage you quoted is a later addition to the original Pauline letter, which ENCOURAGES women to preach and prophesy in assemblies (chapter 11, I believe). The two books of Timothy are "disputed" writings of Paul; most scholars (about 80%) believe individuals and communities wrote these letters in the name of Paul after the man's death. (This was a common practice at that time.)

It does not change the fact that these passages exist within Christian canon, and it does not lessen their impact on the person in the pew, but it does help me to understand the historical Paul in a different light.

Thanks, borrowed it from a friend. Apparently it looked better on me than him.

I'm enjoying the forums already. Ha!

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Jeanniebean, are there any particular questions you have so that I can clarify? (Still figuring out this posting system.)

The science vs. religion debate is not my area of particular interest, but I teach a little on the area of religion and so have a working knowledge of the topic. And, of course, I have my own opinions.

Personally, I think that if you do not have curiosity, if you do not ask questions, if you do not doubt, then you will be hard-pressed to have a strong faith.

Looking through the pages of the Bible, you see a transformation of belief throughout the centuries of composition and compilation. That transformation of the belief in God, of what it means to be in relationship with God and what that relationship actually is demonstrates the importance of continually seeking "the face of God" through questioning, bargaining, arguing, etc. with God.

I also have an understanding of the Church universal as one slow to change (and loathing it) but also one that understands the need to change. God continually calls us to examine our faith. Often the "little c" church loses sight of this, I think. There is too much focus on doctrine and not enough on the evolution of faith and the need for evolution. Though, as I'd like to point out, the problem here is humanity's fear of change, not God forbidding it.

Hmm...maybe we are in need of another "Reformation?" It has only been 450-ish years...

Hi, new to the community, saw this topic, thought I'd add my two cents as a church worker, Christian and scholar.

Evolution and the Bible are compatible in that they were never meant to be compatible. They deal with two entirely different things: evolution with science, the Bible with faith and the revelation of God. The truths present in the Bible are of a different nature than scientific truths. The Bible present spiritual truths revealed through story and science offers "hard facts" that only further reveal (if you are a person of faith) the beauty and complexity of the world God has gifted us.

Then again, my understanding is based upon my belief that the Bible is the inspired (not inerrant) Word of God and that the humanness of its various authors and communities is very much interwoven in its texts.

Perhaps this has already been said. I haven't read all the posts. Apologies if I'm simply repeating another point.