Here is a New Testament example:

Matthew 1:18-25 New Living Translation (NLT)

18 This is how Jesus the Messiah was born. His mother, Mary, was engaged to be married to Joseph. But before the marriage took place, while she was still a virgin, she became pregnant through the power of the Holy Spirit. 19 Joseph, her fianc�, was a good man and did not want to disgrace her publicly, so he decided to break the engagement quietly.

20 As he considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream. "Joseph, son of David," the angel said, "do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. For the child within her was conceived by the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will have a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."

22 All of this occurred to fulfill the Lord’s message through his prophet:

23 "Look! The virgin will conceive a child!
She will give birth to a son,
and they will call him Immanuel,
which means 'God is with us.'"

24 When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded and took Mary as his wife. 25 But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

First I want to point out in verse 19 the concept of entering into a covenant relationship during engagement as I showed previously in Deuteronomy. Marriage was a very sacred, covenantal commitment that was not treated lightly or flippantly by just claiming one was married when they succumbed to their sexual urges whether or not accompanied by feelings of love (whether erotic or ergos because agape would respect the other person enough to wait).
Another translation in the NIV states:

19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

This is in line with what we read earlier in Deuteronomy 22:24.

But then it says after Joseph had a dream and direction from the Lord:

24 When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded and took Mary as his wife. 25 But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

So, here again we see another marriage but this time they are married and have had no sexual intercourse until after Jesus was born so this obviously disproves the assumption that when two people love each other, intercourse is the marriage ceremony making the two, one in God's eyes.

Here are a few more Scriptures:

Exodus 22:16-17 New Living Translation (NLT)
Social Responsibility

16 "If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged to anyone and has sex with her, he must pay the customary bride price and marry her. 17 But if her father refuses to let him marry her, the man must still pay him an amount equal to the bride price of a virgin.

Here is another Old Testament example that just having "sex with her" did not mean they were married, even between two consenting adults. Again, it is the father that had to approve of the marriage, throw the ceremony, and gives his daughter away before they are officially married…and this was their law according to the Mosaic covenant.

I don't know if you have heard of this tradition, but it is still practiced by some, although it is slowly becoming obsolete...the groom asking his future father-in-law for his daughters hand in marriage before proposing to his love. It was very important to make a good impression and show the bride'��s father that she would be well taken care of.

Here we see the law given again, but in a little more detail.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24 New Living Translation (NLT)

23 "Suppose a man meets a young woman, a virgin who is engaged to be married, and he has sexual intercourse with her. If this happens within a town, 24 you must take both of them to the gates of that town and stone them to death. The woman is guilty because she did not scream for help. The man must die because he violated another man's wife. In this way, you will purge this evil from among you.

25 "But if the man meets the engaged woman out in the country, and he rapes her, then only the man must die. 26 Do nothing to the young woman; she has committed no crime worthy of death. She is as innocent as a murder victim. 27 Since the man raped her out in the country, it must be assumed that she screamed, but there was no one to rescue her.

28 "Suppose a man has intercourse with a young woman who is a virgin but is not engaged to be married. If they are discovered, 29 he must pay her father fifty pieces of silver. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he may never divorce her as long as he lives.

First, I would like to point out in verse 29 we see yet again that the man must marry the woman because he has violated her. As acknowledged previously, just having sex did not mean they were married, even when it was between two consenting adults.

But wait; did you notice what happened in verse 24? When the young lady was engaged, she was already considered another man's wife! They had not had the wedding ceremony where the father gave the bride away yet, nor had the engaged couple consummated. I believe we see this again in the New Testament!

I believe I have specific Scripture to respectfully refute your position:

2 Samuel 13 New Living Translation (NLT)

13 Now David'��s son Absalom had a beautiful sister named Tamar. And Amnon, her half brother, fell desperately in love with her. 2 Amnon became so obsessed with Tamar that he became ill. She was a virgin, and Amnon thought he could never have her.

3 But Amnon had a very crafty friend, ��his cousin Jonadab. He was the son of David'��s brother Shimea. 4 One day Jonadab said to Amnon, “What’s the trouble? Why should the son of a king look so dejected morning after morning?

So Amnon told him, ��I am in love with Tamar, my brother Absalom’s sister.

5 ��Well, Jonadab said, ��I will tell you what to do. Go back to bed and pretend you are ill. When your father comes to see you, ask him to let Tamar come and prepare some food for you. Tell him you’ll feel better if she prepares it as you watch and feeds you with her own hands.

6 So Amnon lay down and pretended to be sick. And when the king came to see him, Amnon asked him, "Please let my sister Tamar come and cook my favorite dish as I watch. Then I can eat it from her own hands."�� 7 So David agreed and sent Tamar to Amnon’s house to prepare some food for him.

8 When Tamar arrived at Amnon'��s house, she went to the place where he was lying down so he could watch her mix some dough. Then she baked his favorite dish for him. 9 But when she set the serving tray before him, he refused to eat. "Everyone get out of here,"�� Amnon told his servants. So they all left.

10 Then he said to Tamar, "��Now bring the food into my bedroom and feed it to me here."�� So Tamar took his favorite dish to him. 11 But as she was feeding him, he grabbed her and demanded, "��Come to bed with me, my darling sister."��

12 "��No, my brother!"�� she cried. "��Don'��t be foolish! Don'��t do this to me! Such wicked things aren’t done in Israel. 13 Where could I go in my shame? And you would be called one of the greatest fools in Israel. Please, just speak to the king about it, and he will let you marry me."��

The rest of the story is very sad and tragic indeed, but I want to point out something here. Tamar was not refusing Amnon directly; she was refusing to fornicate with him. She wanted to do it the right way, the Biblical way during the tribal patriarchal era, which was marriage where her father gave her away during a marriage ceremony, just as we saw earlier in the story of Jacob, Leah, Rachel and Laban.

If that is your belief, that is fine and you are entitled to it; but you stated that your belief is Biblical and I strongly disagree.

You stated:




Yes, there was a marriage ceremony that was then consummated afterwards, but it was with the wrong woman!!! Marriage ceremonies were huge in those days lasting days or weeks with the whole family unit and community invited so it was a public declaration of covenant and commitment with one another which was life binding and occurred before the consummation. It was not just a commitment of the husband and wife, but of the family unit as a whole. (Examples are Tamar whose husband passed away and it became the brothers responsibility, and ultimately the patriarchal leader to care for her and fulfill the marital duties to her [Gen 38], but we also see this in Ruth and Naomi in the book of Ruth, I am sure there are more examples but you can look for those on your own if you are interested.

It is my belief that Jacob could have refused to be married to Leah due to Laban’s deception, but that would have been dishonorable to Laban (the father-in-law) and his family. Jacob decided to do the honorable thing, not so much because he was an honorable man (remember, he was a supplanter and trickster) but because of his true love for Rachel he was even willing to work 7 more years for her. If he would have walked away from the marriage of Leah, then he would have insulted the family and Laban would not have given Rachel, his one true love, to him as his wife. He got tricked; he reaped what he sowed so to speak! Lol

Gen. 29:20 20 So Jacob worked seven years to pay for Rachel. But his love for her was so strong that it seemed to him but a few days.

Jacobs love for Rachel was strong enough that he labored for 7 additional years after already serving 7 so that he could take her as his wife with the fathers blessing. Now, if his love was for Rachel and she equally loved him, why did he have to serve 14 years for her? Why not just sleep with her and take her as his wife because the Bible is very clear how much they loved one another?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbe7OruLk8I

Our Father

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FCel-VnX6k

With All I Am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYXJmnJCPG0

Into your hand
I commit again
All I am
For you lord

You hold my world
In the palm of your hand
And I'm yours forever

CHORUS
Jesus I believe in you
Jesus I belong to you
You're the reason that I live
The reason that I sing
With all I am

I'll walk with you
Wherever you go
Through tears and joy
I'll trust in you

And I will live
In all of your ways and
Your promises forever
I will worship I will worship you forever

Hey guys.

Well, if the girls say they want a nice guy but really want a bad guy then they are confused or immature, lol.

And maybe the nice guys need to quit hiding!

Welcome to the forums; it is a great way to meet people...

Love that link and use it often!

Here is a daily audio bible that reads the Bible through in a year...it takes Scriptures from the OT, NT, Psalms, and Proverbs and reads them through in a year using different versions. It has a great prayer community and forums as well.

It has radically changed many peoples who felt rushed for time in the mornings and would listen while getting ready or while on the way to work...

www.dailyaudiobible.com

With many blessings...

Yes, and it was quite a surprise

Eagles Wings – Hillsong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP6YR81wPZE



On Eagles Wings lyrics

1. Here I am waiting ,abide in me I pray
Here I am longing for you.

Hide me in your love, bring me to my knees
May I know Jesus more and more

CHORUS-

Come live in me all my life, take over,
come breath in me and I will rise on eagles wings*2



2.Here I am waiting abide in me i pray
Here I am longing for you

Hide me in your love, bring me to my knees
May I know Jesus more and more.

Mikeschair – Let the Waters Rise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUGwJC3P3qw



Let The Waters Rise lyrics

Don't know where to begin
Its like my world's caving in
And I try but I can't control my fear
Where do I go from here?

sometimes its so hard to pray
When You feel so far away
But I am willing to go
Where you want me to
God, I trust You

There's a raging sea
Right in front of me
Wants to pull me in
Bring me to my knees
So let the waters rise
If You want them to
I will follow You
I will follow You
I will follow You

I will swim in the deep
'Cuz You'll be next to me
You're in the eye of the storm
And the calm of the sea
You're never out of reach

God, You know where I've been
You were there with me then
You were faithful before
You'll be faithful again
I'm holding Your hand

There's a raging sea
Right in front of me
Wants to pull me in
Bring me to my knees
So let the waters rise
If You want them to
I will follow You
I will follow You
I will follow You

God Your love is enough
You will pull me through
I'm holding onto You
God Your love is enough
I will follow You
I will follow You

Ohhh

There's a raging sea
Right in front of me
Wants to pull me in
Bring me to my knees
So let the waters rise
If You want them to
I will follow You
I will follow You
I will follow You

Ohhh

Like it!!


Before the Morning

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZDQzR8LK-c

Thank you Veterans and your families for your service and sacrifice for the freedom that we enjoy today! You are remembered and honored today and always!

God bless!

East to West
Casting Crowns

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oV4ndllEY8

Hi MsMila!

I was not aware that the Christian doctrine endorses us to hate anyone who is not a Christian. The great commission is share the good news with others and the greatest commandments are to love the Lord our God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength and to love our neighbors as yourself. When Jesus was asked who is a neighbor, he responded with a parable of a good Samaritan man helping a man wounded and left for dead while the religious hypocrites walked by and looked the other way. (Samaritans were despised by Jews at this time, which makes this parable even more amazing and shows us how we are to treat others! Luke 10:25-37)

A true Christian would have a heart for the Muslims, Jews, or anyone else who is confused or does not know the truth and would keep them in prayer. There is a wild fire revival going on right now in Muslim nations and around the world where many are putting their life in jeopardy everyday for the sake of the Gospel and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I would be Very wary of any church or group that demeans people in anyway. We are all made in the image of God and it is His will that not one would perish and that all would repent and come unto the knowledge of God.

Blessings

This was a very tough decision for me when I had my first child.

I decided that I would not lie to my children because truth is so important to me and I am the one to model truth to them!

I have shared the traditional story of St. Nicolas as well as the many fables from many different nations and explained to them what I and most children grew up experiencing here in the US. They know the lesson of sharing with the poor and good will.

We went to Bass Pro last week and got a pic with Santa. We made the list there and put it in the mailbox so 'Santa' could send us an e-mail =) We still pretend to set out milk and cookies for Santa and corn feed for Rudolff and his crew...Yet, they know he is make believe and that the reason we celebrate the holiday is to celebrate the birth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! We pray and ask God for the toys they are believing for and I try to convey that the funnest part is the opportunity to give gifts to others and watch their surprise as they open the gift!!!

We make Jesus a Birthday cake every year and watch The Nativity Story and other Christmas stories that center around Christ and when my middle son's Christmas list came home from school last week it said that he did not care about the presents because Christmas is about celebrating Jesus' Birthday! WOW!! Praise God!

They know that I play 'Santa' and I honestly struggled with it since the teachers in school tell them differently and I have to tell them that Mom isn't lying...but that we are not to ruin the surprise for other children because it is a tradition celebrated by most Americans.

I worried if I would be ruining Christmas for them and they would grow up to be devastated, resentful adults but in class about a month ago a young lady that is not a Christian said that her parents made the decision to tell her that Santa was not real and the presents were from them. I asked her if it traumatized her at all and she said not at all...that she appreciated that they told her the truth and she was always thankful for the gifts. That was a comfort to me.

I believe that whatever one chooses to do is fine though. I grew up with Santa and enjoyed the expereince until I was told that he wasn't real...

Yes, we should celebrate our Lord's birth and everyday is a good time to do it, yet, having a specific time of year to set a side and do so is awesome!!!

Nice write