This is the very thing about deceit and truth, there is no difference in its perception. That part that we are foolish enough to beleive is that if "I" beleive it therefore it is true and everyone else is wrong. We all wrongly place ourselves as the determiner of what is true. Our thoughts form the get go again biased and tainted. We may actually be on course of what is true yet the bases for our truth cannot be because it is what we believe. For what is truth to me is deciet to another and what is truth to them appears as deceit to me. I believe that to really find the tuth it is what we look for together and together we can extend each others perception. Perhaps though the truth be harmonious yet we all may have a different name for where this truth comes from.

Many times we enter into cahnging someone beliefs or perceptive in an attempt to be right. Again the thought of being right has nothing to do with truth, it has to do with our ego.. for I am right and you are wrong. And of course you would see it the other way around. It is only when we put such things aside, almost like in scientific theory. These methods can misfire on the supposed knowledge that we think we have and on our determination to be right.

Even our perception of God. By the laws of the universe there seems there ought to be a God of the original cause of the effect, or the effect of order from chaos. An example is that if we were walking along and see a watch on the ground we would not think that the metal and gears and inner workings of the watch just happen to fall into place, even if there were no manufacturer name upon it. There must be a probablitily of this accurring which would be more likely that just the mere function of our eye, or our ablitily to hear or smell or speak. Yet still our conclusion is based on the matter of the effect without indeed knowing what the sourse of the effect is. So we place upon this cause the word God, or maybe other would say "the force".

Any conclusion in our present form of existance in any form we remain inconclusive. That is were perhaps our spirit takes over from logic and where faith is then established... for faith is the reality of things not seen the evidence of things hoped for. Faith is where we enter into the solidness of faith, that our faith becomes the ground we walk on, the air that we breathe , the environment that surrounds us. This is often in many ways contrary to one's approach in a physical level. For I think people always find that what is physical does not satisfy that which is the spiritual part within us. Though many may never desire to develope this part of who they are, it reamins within them.

I think how one's perspective changes is not by proof or logic, but by speaking to one another according to the spiritual aspect within us. It is a language that cannot be processed throught the mind. In speaking through our speaking the essense of that which is spiritual is heard by the others spirit. There is something within us that is drawn to what rings true within us. I think you, and abracabra have this part in you. I would say that we need to learn to speak from our spirit, as we do from our mind and according to logic, and in the same way we ought to express those things within our heart according to that which it feels and the love that is within it. Spiritual things are understood by the spirit, and that which is understood by the spirit then can transform us to the renewing of our mind.

Creative soul who worte :
John Donne is worthwhile reading which displays the fear instilled into humans by this notion of the omnigod...

I think often though we may not live according to fear we still can have an understanding of its usefulness in a positive effect. I myself do not use fear to motivate myself except as in the matter of taxes and the doctrine of freewill speed limitations.

Often fear is used to get people from doing those things which they do not want to do. Yet often in the Bible fear is used as part of the apporach to holiness (now I am just saying what the Bible says just as an approach to growth). After having the promise of being sons and daughters of God , that we should not touch any unclean thing... therefore having these promises let us cleanse ourselves for all filthiness of flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Also Peter says that we are to be holy as God is holy and that if we call Him Father who impartially judges each man according to his deals live your live in fear during your stay on earth. Even Solomon after concluding life is basically a chasing after the wind and that all our pursuits are vanities and a waste concludes that "the whole duty of man is to fear God and to keep His commandments". Still yet to love is a truer and more enduring cause of obeying God. As Christ said, "if you love me you will obey my commandment" Now this doesnt sound lvoing at all to some , yet His commandment was that if we love Him we would love each other.

Now I know that fear is not the highest motivator but we ourselves use in on children to keep them in mine thill they have a better understanding. Even many times we may exceed the speed limit but we apply the brakes as soon as we spot a police officer. Yet we fear the ticket that speed limit and enforecemnet is really for our own good and saftey. If we all obeyed the speed limit there would be no need to fear and no need for enforcement. Yet I do not think this deals with terror. Yet also the Bible talks about perfect love and that perfect love casts out all fear, because fear deals with punishment.

Yet fear is a poor motivator for as soon as we are clear of detection we resume our unsafe speed and put ourselves and others more at risk. Maybe it is only when love is allowed to take control of ourselves that we will do nothing in which we ought to fear. Or when our conscience is good and and our desire for respect and honor of others will keep us from doing harm and hurt to each other. Children who are such in this way have no need to fear their parent and possibly if all men walk in such a way before God we would find there is littel need to fear God, and more reason to love him and each other.

Dragoness, I do think the simply pleasures of life often sustain us. I love to look at the sky especially at sunset. Going to the beach it feels like a timeless experience, or a friend who never changes, and brings a timelessness to the soothing experience. Who doesn't every once in a while look up at the nights sky o look for a moment at the stars, or to enjoy the landscape under the light of a full moon. Such pleasure are timeless, and seem to bring peace and a smile.

Abracabra, it seems at times when we lose something so important to us, we are undone. Our life becomes a shadow. We can feel like a hollow shell and all that was once inside of us is now gone. Too often others do not understand such things, or even often we too wish we could snap out of our lost state. Yet I would say there are things within us that readjust, that try to make sense of what life now has become. These things are again not just according to logic, but also our soul and our heart, these need to find answer, but maybe not answers but to find their course again.

I would also encourage you not to look back at what you once were for we can never be what we were, but instead to look forward to what you are yet to become. Often we can still go beyond what we have known before, I think the spirit is like this, things are always changing, that which we know now is different from what we have known. It shifts and beckons us forward to further understand and insights. I do not think wisdom and truth are such things that we find in a book but are discovery after discovery.

It is only when we think we know that we become blind to what is still yet to be learned.

Abracabra, you wrote,
"However, I was able to retain Jesus. Perhaps because I never really viewed him as God to being with. I always viewed him as a mortal man and so it was easy for me to keep his spirit alive even after I realized that the book had no divinity overall.

So now I try to get people to understand that God is more than just a book. But I am grossly misunderstood. All they can see is an enemy of their picture of God.

But it’s hard to work with those kinds of people when all they can do is throw verses at you and make absurd proclamations that contradict reality and do it in the name of a God. A God that they believe has endowed them with some kind of indisputable absolute divine truth that no one can deny. And this places them in the ultimate position of judge, jury and execution of my faith and respectability.

So sure, I fight back.

But only against the radical fanatical verbatim Bible Thumpers. Everyone else is experiencing collateral damage. "

I am not quite sure what position Christ holds. He Himself never acknowledge Himself as God, though He did say before Abraham was I am. He did not possess all of the atrributes given to God, He was not all knowing. In fact one would be hardpressed to find a scripture that says Jesus is God, yet I would not deny He is, it is really just unclear. He is th e Christ the Son of the Living God. That is for sure. He is the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. He is even the exact representation of the Father, He existed in the very form of God. Yet all of those do not say... He is God. So one must make that decision on their intrepretation. It even says He shall be called, the everlasting Father, yet being called something is still not the same as He is the ever lasting Father.

I am glad that you have not given up Christ. But I still would encourage you if nothing else to read His teachings for they do have something good and of Life within them.

I would say, that many Christians focus on certain positions and topics, many know verse that support their point or the point of their denomination. Not too many study the word to be doers of the word. Yet I would also encourage you not to fight, for in fighting I do not think anyone wins. What you and I look for they do not have. Their words have do life in them, they are not bad but are products of a system, that is set up to reproduce forms of itself. I does good for many but it will almost always have an emptiness to it that most feel but do not know what that feeling is. Most know also to look into it deepre would be uncomfortable and they amy have to lose their way of life. If you where to say let us oeby all that the Lord has said which is only as we ought to do, they would not understand that because that is not really any part of the system.

The system is to go to church, to do religious things, and to live a your own life the way you want. This is an over simplification but it is fairly true. We cannot change that system, that form. We can only bring a message that would call some out of it into something they are looking for like us. If we fight with them, as in a war it is hard to see what we are fighting for. We really only ought to encourage others, accept them, and to be at peace with them. Maybe it is like casting pearl before swine. lol Not to call anyone names but often we try to give what is precious to ourselves to others who have no regard of it. The pig is not a bad animal it just does not recognize the value of a pearl.

Abracabra, I would still say that the words and teachings, especially those of Jesus, and the rest of the NT are profitable to really anyone.

I think God had a design for us or what we were created to be, in the words of Christ, we allow the light to shine into our inner self and it exposes those things that are against us and others which is darkness. They are not evil or flaws, they are rather hinderances and unhealthiness. We often get defensive or deny things that are in us that we feel make us a bad person. Such thoughts pervent us from dealing with the things that continually do damage to ourselves and others, and because we hide from them or rather hide these things from ourselves they continue to do their damage.

The way to freedom and to life are blocked by our own pride, our own self-esteem, our own imagination of who we are. These things constantly get in our way of accepting who we really are and then in becoming who we truly are... that which we can be. We must fine a way to humility. This is not the degradation of our character, for many too can be pride about how worthless and sinful they are. I do beleive is that we become insignificant to ourselves, so that I do not take thought in how good I am, but rather focus on what good I can do for others, or that we can do together. Here I am not so concerned that I present myself in a way that would appear right but that if there is something in me that is good to share, I would then share it without any awareness of myself. The only real awareness that I seek is that my motives are always pure, my thoughts are directed for good, and my heart is full of goodness and love. Does this make me a saint, not at all, I am no better than anyone else, but I am better for everyone else.

I may not do all of these things perfectly , yet that does not matter, for I do not seek to recognize myself as perfect or for others to see me as good, but maybe as a friend of others. Because it is not what I am that really is important but how I live and the things that I live by. It is not about me, it is about love that can guard and guide everyone thoughts, words and actions. Please beleive me I do not say any of these things wanting to credit myself. I think I am only living as I ought to live and sometimes I do not do that as well as I wish.

Creativesoul, you wrote:

"Yes indeed, I would have to whole heartedly agree that when I took Jesus' words into personal account by judging myself of myself, it was the beginning of the search for the Spirit within... The 'annointing' of the Spirit happened only after my purist desires to be the best that I could be, THAT is ALL I wanted, and still continually strive for... Curiously enough, there were several factors within the church that deflected this intention of the essence of 'God'... The eyes of the Word, are not blind to truth... the divinity that is contained within the Bible rejects the neighboring words which are not... loudly and clearly rejecting that which is not of essence of Spirit.

That recognition ostracized me from the teachings of hypocrisy... A wonderful separation from even more of the thief teaching which coincided with the continued lifting of the worldy fingerprint that had been internalized within me...

I love what the Spirit has done and continues to do within me... Completely nested within us, silently nurturing those things within one which need attention... shining a light on the darkness... the extension of the desire to be the best that one can be... I am reminded to be grateful for that which has been realized...

The deprogramming of that which steals us from peace and love, and the beginning of the acknowledgement of the Spirit within us...

The light will been shown to each who chooses to turn it on... and witness how one looks to themself through the eyes which are not only of us... we are but mere vessels... "

This I feel is also similar to the path I choose. Yet, it is hard to break away from hypocrasy for it is easy for anyone to be a hypocrit and not realize it mainly because of pride and the justification of things we do not wish to see within ourselves. But let me ask you this, and this is what I hope, is that we do not look into a path of folly or hypocriasy but that we look for and walk down the path that leads toward the light, toward transformation, toward life, toward enlightenment. In this way we undo the path that many are locked into by showing those who are willing to walk down a good path. I do not think our faith should be in question but that we all look to the inner life by which all men could live by.

The Bible say that debate and conflict lead to ungodliness and to the ruining of hearers. All in all seldom does debate get anywhere because the pursuit is not truth, but each one trying to prove they are right. Often even the truth can be undone if the one is a better prepared, or undermines the character or intellengence of the other or if one has more charisma. It is better to seek understanding, to find the truth as much as we can together. The comment you made is also the way that I wish to live and yet we have gotten there in totally different ways, yet none the less we are there... together. Yet it is not that we just "know" the truth but that it shows us the way to be and live.

I beleive that acceptance is a great truth. Acceptence allows us to be at peace and to act harmonious with each other. I am not in conflict with your beliefs and what you beleive does not threaten what I beleive. We all hear a voice of sorts that draws us in one direction or another, the voice that I hear may not be what you hear, yet we each ought to be true to that voice within us. Yet maybe through each other the voice that you hear may complete the voice that I hear. Though we are different we do not have to be in conflict with others. If others are judgmental and condemning, we see the senselessness of such things, yet we ourselves judge and condenmn no one.

And again actually that person does not know better, for often they think they do the things they ought to do, that the knowledge of good and evil allow them to do so. Yet still maybe they too do the best they can by their standard and faith.

Hi Abracabra,
I always look forward to your insights and wisdom.

I do beleive that the truth is the truth no matter what its source is. It is not so much of who said it, but more of a matter of how we ought to live it. I do choose to be a Christian, yet I am glad to be a follower of Christ and glad to choose to continue to be one, yet I do have the same question that creativesoul puts forth about God. I find it hard to pray for much more than for strength, wisdom, and for forgiveness. I ask for very little else because I am not sure that I really need much more. I know this is not what the Bible teaches yet I often do not understand the events in life that are hard and cruel, yet one thing I still believe is that God always deals with us according to His loving kindness. I choose to beleive this though my mind tells me otherwise or would if I allowed it. Also I focus on how I ought to live my life for surely that is more important than for God to grant me my every wish.

I often think we have turned things around in our minds about God in this way. We are often more concerned about what we want in our lives than what He deisres for us and how He wishes we would live. I can live in a mannner that is according to His teachings and this perhaps is enough to find the secret of true treasures in life. This is why I say those who live according to the truth of their beleifs I feel more akin to being a brother or sister than most of those who are Christians. I think you, creativesoul, are correct in many of your positions about what Chrisitainity is now, today, yet this does not in anyway show what it ought to be.

I beleive there is little that we can do to change this. For Christian's will continue to judge others, even though it is taught against in the scriptures and that whatsoever jusdgment they use toward others they themselves will be judged, it is those who are without sin that have the right to throw stones at others, and of course there are not too many of them. :) If a person truly see their position they would see it does no one any good to cast judgment on another. One must first be above others in order to cast a judgment on them, and I really dont think there is a human who really is in that position. Yet we can watch over each other, enourage each other, assist each other in overcoming obsticles.

I do beleive that God loves and cares for all. I know know the life that He deisres us to live is a life of love, joy, and peace. You shall know them by their fruits; well the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, meekness, and self-control. These are the qualities that all Christians should diplay, it is sad that that is not as much of the way it ought to be.

Creativesoul. You have referred to someone's teaching on the Parable of the sower. Too often interpretation over rides the Bible itself. There are many teaching of men that for the most part make no difference whatsoever in our lives or the outcome of our life, none the less there are fought over to no resolve. Such things as are we saved by works or faith, freewill or predestination, or if the law is still in effect or not. All who enter in to these debate and conflicts have their verses that support their position. Yet it is not the scriptures that are in conflict, but when men take a position on their meaning.

One scripture says we are saved by grace apart from works, another scripture say that without works faith is dead. To me there is no conflict. Maybe it is like oxigen, we need oxigen to be able to live, but I must breathe in order to live. Or we could see that faith is the cause and wroks are the effect. You may say you have faith in a ladder but unless you get on it your faith is useless. Even in this matter I have added to the scripture.

What of predestination or not. Most would say we are not, I would like to think that I am the one who is control of my own decisions, yet if I am not does it change anything what so ever, I will still go on making my decisions according to what seems as free will though it may not be at all. If I am predestined and beleive my actions and decision are predestined and that I am one of the elect, that belief will not change the fact of whether I am or not perdestined. Such things may shape our decisions but have little effect on what is true or the outcome of the truth.

I am not sure ralize the seriousness of your series of questioning the faith of others though. I certainly struggle in my belief at times, do you wish to discourage me and have me to consider forsaking those things that have been sacred to me and by which I have based my life on. For what reason, for what good will you bring to my life, that I am full of false hope and that I have wasted my life in pursuing something that you do not think is real. Does my faith harm others, does it do me harm if I can find peace, purpose and direction in my life. Are not such things within people something that is sacred, and that we should respect and accept within one another. Yet I still claim that though my belief may be different from yours I do not think our path and goals in life are in conflict.

I think it is better to find the good in the teachings of others. Perhaps the Bible has flaws, I do not wish to think of it so, but again my thoughts do not change whether it does or not, yet I know something within it rings true within me and feels like LIFE. I do not hear or find life in the words of many speakers and writers, yet when I do there is something in me that is refreshed and encouraged.

What is the purpose of knowledge, if it does not bring about advancement, progress, growth, transformation, or at least add to the function of things, and assist in problem solving. What is faith based on, something inside of us that may be against all reason and logic. Are we not body, heart, mind and spirit, are there things truly that our mind cannot comprehend yet we understand such things in our spirit. Does love make sense to our mind, yet love is yet as real as logic, and faith as real as love. I know there are many who beleive in witchcraft, and goddesses, and some who choose to believe in nothing. I am not here to make every one as I am, I wish that I would love them and that if in sharing or the LIFE that is in me, I may stir the LIFE that is in them, that we all would walk in love and peace together.

I wish to accept them, I would not question what they beleive but would rather share my faith or the Life that is in Christ with them teaching of love and peace rather than that they are going to hell. I am sure they all have heard this enough.

I find most Christians do little because they are Christians either to be right, or to avoid hell, but such reason do not stir most of them to follow Christ and His teachings. I do not think you should so much look at those who do not follow the teachings of Christ, but instead look at how Christ lived and what He taught us about how we should live. Maybe Christianity is like a fax machine, rather than everyone going back to the original form, it has become copies of copies, and nothing is no longer clear.

Paul wrote to let our speech always be as it were seasoned with grace so that it might benefit all who hear. In James, it says, Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom; and also,... But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy; and the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. Paul also wrote, The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged. And proverbs says, A GENTLE answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

I beleive that many as Christains do not have this understanding, and also that even those who are not Christians there is still wisdom from such words.

Creativesoul, you along with dragoness, and abracabra have treated me well, and I respect your views and insights. I know you do not beleive as I do, yet still I think thinnk the path we walk is not that different. Also I beleive you all have sound thinking and good insights. Why they can't I think of you as friends.

We all make choices of what path we would follow, should the path you choose upset me. Hopefully I would not want mine to upset you. God shows patience to all men, and allows each of us to make our choice. Yet what ever choice makes me no better than you nor, does it place me in judgment over you. The scriptures even teach that it is not a Christians place to judge the world but God's who judge's each man without partiality. Christian's rather ought to use discernment and watch over each other in order that we can live a life of love and good works.

I beleive in honor and respect toward others. I find this in turn helps me at work and on line. We ought to accept others, for who they are and to treat them with the kindness we can show them. In doing so you have been courteous to me and friendly. I appreciate this because I do not think you are here to battle others just as I am not here to fight and debate with others, but instead to gain insight, wisdom, and understanding. I believe God gives this to all men who seek after it.

I do not think that our faith has to cause conflict, it does not have to bring about condemnation. I still do and will share my perspective of truth as a Christian but hopefully it will be in a way that does not challenge but hopefully benefits others to insight of love and life. I also beleive that each of you have Life and wisdom within you.

Christ taught us to love our enemies, but I think really what we find in the end is really that we have few enemies and those who consider me their enemy are only influenced by the anger that is within them. I do not know why Christianity often creates conflict. It even does so within the faith even though the word of God says I beseech you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ for there to be no divisions among you. Even in a prayer that jesus prayed, He Asked that we would be one as He and the Father are one and that we then could be one in them, and that by this the world would know that the Father has sent the Son. It is sad that Chrisitians do not desire this as much as their Lord does.

Their are many things that Christians accept as Christianity, and thereby others beleive this is who Christ is, but really it is the Scriptures that show us truly who Christ is. If we read the sermon on the mount Matthew 5-7. We would see a better picture of Christ and a good way to live.

I often would ask others if there were any that truly wanted to live in this manner. To me it is not that one should advance over another, (of choice a mindset of choice rather than concept) that we all would move forward together,; that we do not watch out after ourselves as an individual but that we see ourselves as a unit, as one.

There are many teachings in the NT that support this also. I am not trying to make this religious, but that this stirs a part of me and the sort of life that I wish to live. In acts in talks about no one saw his possessions as his own. Paul wrote that those who gather much share with those who gather little so that there would be an equality. Even Jesus taught that if we have more than what we need to share with those who do not have what they need.

I think we are often misquided by our own self-interested ways, that if we worked together for the good of all that we could evolve to a higher way of life. Our self-intereest causes us to waste, to horde, to oppress, to destroy our environment, and often to take advantage of others so that we can benefit form their loss. Our society tofocuses on people as indiviuals and that is how most see themselves, yet we are really part of a whole. Yet who we really are is not who we are by ourselves but that my identity is really who I am as a part of the whole. The most important aspect of myself is not who I am to myself but what I am able to give and to offer to others.

Maybe the whole root of this is love, for unconditional love does not require anything in return but is given as a gift, freely to another. The true nature of self is selfless, it does not seek its own, it wish good and no harm or voilence to others. It does not act rudely, does not get irrate, it stands by, beleive in, and supports others.

This topic is actually not so much about theory, but about a way of life, maybe somehow we could head in this direction as a people, maybe not this century, but if we can survive maybe someday we will find that path that leads to this type of world. I know it will come unless our children and our children's children see the uselessness of greed, prejudice, and war.

I think like in many religions that it is about a path by which we are to live. I know I can hope that there is a heaven, yet that is not the reason why I wish to live following the teachings of Christ.

I too feel that Christ is misrepresneted by the religiousness of many "Christians". Yet even they have a love for God and a devotion to Christ, but it is more after a pop-cultural version of Christ. That often where is beleived is more focused on how we live and Christ was really the opposite of this. It is important what we beleive but all of that is nullified if our lives do not follow after His teaching.

His message was of love and peace, though many will say that he came to bring a sword, but that is more likely about the inner conflict within ones family over the issues of faith, as all religions, when we break away from the beliefs of our culture or family truely "swords" are drawn raise.

I do not know where the origins of teaching originated, but I beleive they are not as much of one copying another but more that spiritual truth is spiritual truth, and most likely those who live by those truths have more in common in their pursuits thatn those who place one religion over another.

What others beleive I do not need to challenge, I present the message of Christ for others to have a choice if that is what they wish to follow after. Christ was not after numbers but sincerity, commitment, and practice. He used the words, "if anyman will follow after me...." Therefore, no one has to that does not want to.

After a great many turned away from Christ because of some of His teachings, He turned to His disciples and spoke to them. He did not plead for them to stay with Him because everyone else was going a different way. He only asked them, Would they too leave Him? What Peter said is what everyone who follows a path must realize, "Where else shall we go becuase you have the words of life."

I would never hope to say come and beleive these things, but rather come and live this life, for is is good, it show us the way to what we all hope to find, a life of hope, meaning, that fulfills something within us. It is a path, a way, it is a life.

Any who seek after love and peace and kindness toward others, will find that this is how Christ was and lived and what He taught. His gripe was against hypocrits, against those who suppose and oppress others by their teaching, He was against those who profitted by the means of their religiousness or who were prideful and arrogent and sought after the honor and recognition of men.

Most Christians are not the friend of sinners, the poor and the outcast. Christ was. Todays Christianity focus on what the individual recieves, Christ focused on what we can give. Many focus on judging others and righteous indignation, Christ said he who is without sin cast the first stone. We focus on looking at the flaws of others yet Christ said, Behold the log is in your own eye, and that it is always the lesser speck in the eyes of our brother.

How is it the world would know who are His disciples? Not by by the sign in front of our building, not by the cross around our necks, no by the quoting of scripture, or the correctness of our doctrine... BUT BY OUR LOVE FOR ONE ANOTHER.

It is always easy to look for the flaws in things that we do not agree with. If one wishes to follow Christ, it is not about what building he goes to, about his beleif system. It is that he has heard a Voice that speaks to him and the voice rings true, and no matter what he cannot help himself but to follow after the things this voice said because all that he knows is that these are the words of LIFE.

When I tie my shoes my laces will never be perfectly balance. Though I try to take good care of my body, I will never look like Brad Pitt or Arnold. Even at work, as hard as i try to make every install of a kitchen the best I can, it will never be flawless. The cabinets themselves are not flawless nor without imperfection. But each kitchen will be done according to quality and dedicated craftmanship because I love my job and what I do.

I do seek though to be perfect, or as close as I can get to it, in my heart according to love and intention, my life as far as action and deed, according to my spirit with wisdom. love, and humility; to have a upright and clear conscience, and to keep my body fit and capable. This is a quest, a longing within me. I have not reached this but I am on a path that leads me further.

It has nothing to do about being better than others in any way, notion,or beleif. As I go down this road instead it is toward greater love and kindness to be directed at others, that I am not against any one. For I wish to have the mind that there is no "them", that we are only alienated in our own mind and imaginations, from which prejudice and hatred come and are build upon.

I am looking for any who would join me, in this mind set and goal for themselves and together, for it is good to stir one another to love and good deed, and to seek after peace and good will with all men, to accept, honor and appreciate all that each person is and who they can become.

I liked the Ninth Gate and Sleepy Hollow. HI think he is waht made the Pirates movie the hit they are, those movies will be classics. I watched the last one for about the third time, I finally enjoyed that one too. I thought it was a little too dark compared to the first two. But it still was good.

My dear brother Miles,
I know that you love the Lord and that you have a zeal for the law, which is a good thing because it is done to the glory of God, and is based on your faith and conscience. Yet I have trouble with you pressing the Law on others. I really do not care to do this, yet I will knowing you may well have a response for each scripture given here.

I am not trying to say that you are in error in your pursuit, yet to place the law on others I think is not sound, according to the following scriptures. I do think the law is good if we use it to pursue holiness and to seek the life that is in it spiritually. Yet our salvation will always depend upon the grace and mercy of God, not on our observance of the law. We are now to live righteously not by the letter but according to the spirit and faith, with pure intentions and a pure heart.

I do not seek to have you agree with me but rather to only see, I do not base my faith on the law nor do I believe we are still under the law. Not that we would sin, but that we would live righteously.

Along with these scriptures, I found it significant that the “law” was not mentioned in: 2 Cor., Eph., Col., 1&2 Thes., 2 Tim., Philemon, 1&2 Pet., 1,2,&3 Jn. Jude, nor Revelation. I am not saying that there may not have been referred to as something else, yet the word “Law” was not there.

These are some scriptures concerning the law that I wish to share with you and others. I will make no comment or interpretation of these things but let you and others come to your own conclusions. I hope this does not go any further than this, for there is no need. If you desire to have a rebuttal I guess that is fine, for there is nothing more that I ought to say.

You are my brother, I respect you and your position, I would even like to hear how it is you feel in your heart on these matter and the Life that you find within them. It would be interesting to see the spiritual aspect of the good these things do within us and for us to God’s glory. I think those things would be much better than a apparent debate on something that I am not opposed to.

Your brother,
Barry

Passages from the New American Standard Bible:

When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church, the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them. But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.

The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples, a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.
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Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those [who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the incircumcised through faith is one.
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Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
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For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
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BRETHREN, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
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Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For this, « YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET, and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, « YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.
Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
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THEN after an interval of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along also. It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain. But not even Titus, who was with me, though he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage. But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.

But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews? We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified. But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be!

For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
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YOU foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Did you suffer so many things in vain -- if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, « ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU. So then those who are of faith are blessed with [Abraham, the believer.

For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM. Now that no one is justified by [the Law before God is evident; for, THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH. However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us -- for it is written, « CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE, in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it.

Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, «And to seeds, as referring to many, but rather to one, And to your seed, that is, Christ. What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.

But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
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NOW I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. . So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world.

But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, « Abba! Father!»

Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?

You observe days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

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IT was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

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For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, « YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.» …

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. BRETHREN, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.
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For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
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Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by the so-called Circumcision, which is performed in the flesh by human hands -- remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
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More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
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But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.

But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious,
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But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men. But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

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Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?

For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. . For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life.

For it is attested of Him, « YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK. For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

I always look forward to your comment Abracabra. You are right, we are to love and to be good stewards of the world. I think, a milder version of what it meant by loving the world and the things of the world, are basically things that men try to fulfill their lives with, possessions, pleasures, power/ego. Such as it is written that the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil, it isnt that money is actively evil, but that many do harmful and unlawful things for the sake of attaining money. It is also written that we cannot have two masters, that we will love the one and hate the other, cling to one and despise the other, a man cannot serve both God and money/possessions.

Christ taught that we should not prioritize seeking after food or clothing, but to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness. But part of that is that we should work hard with our hands, not only to provide for ourselves and our families but also to be able to share with those in need. I think it is about finding our purpose in life, to find our meaning here on earth, to not focus on ourselves but to be kind good, and to share with others, that we ought not to horde things at the expense of others, so that we would be able to share, even to the extent (if we so diesired) as to sell what we have and to give to the poor so that we would have treeasures in heaven, or that when we have a party to invite the homeless and poor, that when we have opportunity to do good to not do good or to give to others knowing that they in turn would give back.

I think all of these may seem extreem to some. I do not think that it is the action that is the goal here, but that our hearts would be free to be generous and kind to others. Often we do not love others so well because we love ourselves more. Others only get the left overs or in doing good to others sometimes people feel that those people owe them something in return. I think that is what the Bible is trying to acheive in our lives.

I install cabinets for Home Depot in Orlando. Grew up in Daytona. Gradated form Mainland in "74"... at the dog track. lol Not what I had hoped for. But I loved the beach, still do just dont get over there anymore.

The Lord talks about His return, that it will be as a theif in the night, He will return when we least expect it. So what matter most is that we are ready and doing His will, and taking care of each others, in many ways we ought to be each others keepers, and watch over and guard each others.

We are saved by grace, and not good works yet we are His workmanship in Christ created for good works and to do good to others which He has desires for us to do live by. In somways maybe it is revealing that many shall do miracles and wonders in His name and even cast out demons, yet to many He will say depart from me, I never knew you, you are workers of inequity. The same are said of those who sat and ate with Him and sat and listenned to His teachings, many of them too we hear those words. Yet the things we see that the Lord has commended in judgment is that we feed those who are hungry, we give drink to those who are thirsty, we give clothes to those who are lacking, we visit the sick, widows and orpans in their distress.

After meeting with the pillars of the church (Peter, James, and John) the only thing they asked of Paul was to remember the poor, which Paul commented, the very thing he was eager to do. In doing good before men we are like a light, by which others give credit and thanks to God for the good works that we do.

Certainly, there are things which are not taught or known of today, such as holiness, Paul wrote that in having the promises of being the sons and daughters of God we ought to cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of god, and Peter too said We are to be holy, and that if we call Him father who impartial judges each of us we ought to live our lives soberly in this present age. Paul wrote that the grace of god has appeared to all men, instucting us to deny worldliness and ungodliness and to live righteously and soberly in this present age. Often in these things I think the law has merit.

Too often it is easy to love the world and the things that are in the world not understanding that in doing so we place ourselves as enemies of God, for all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the mind and the baostful pride of life in not of the God but opposes the very direction God desires for us to go. I know this can be misunderstood, but these are the very things that choke God and fruitfulness out of our lives. They are not life but a distraction to the very life God sesires of us, for it is not the things that do us harm, but the claim they have on our minds and hearts (for where our treasure is, there our heart will be also.

We ought always to be ready for His return, but maybe the place where we should start is the same place that we should always return to... and that is love. For no matter how mauch we do, know or say, without love it is all for nothing. Paul said the goal of His instruction was love from a pure heart, a sincere faith and a sound mind.

I know I am not yet where I would like to be. I think I am a little different and many do not understand me, so it is hard to find encouragement or people who feel the way i do. I do not come here to judge anyone. I do not just try to spout off things but wish to live by the words I say and feel within me. You are a brother to me, I know you love the Lord and are full of knowledge and devotion toward Him, I can only hope that in some way I can encourage you.

I hope I never indicated that the law was flawed, it is man that was flawed, in either His lfaeh or pursuit. Even now there is nothing wrong to observe the Law if one does it to yield to God and His righteousness, rather than to try to merit or to retain standing in our own goodness.

There are many things that I could say for the sake of debate that you know I could say that you already have answers to. But why should we go there my friend. I am not against you, I am not against the law. I myself have often thought that the things in the law may bring a man closer to the heart of God. I beleive that if we cna see the spiritual aspect and the life that is in the law it would do any one good to do so.

There is liberty in Christ to observe the days or not to observe the days yet to do so for the glory of God and according to a man's conscience and faith. If the law guides one into a rightoeus lifestle and into life, love and peace, than a man does well, also if a man guided by love for his God and love for His neighbor are guided into the truth of the law by His faith and conscience this is good also, or if a man seeks to be pure in heart and intention, does the things that are according to the law and righteousness, then this too is good for this man too lives according to His faith and conscience. The same can be said of those who live under the yielding of the spirit.

It seems that Gentiles were not compelled to live let the Jews, but at the same time neither did a Jew have to forsake the ways He was compelled to live, yet Christ has broken down the wall of enmity between the two so that they could be of one mind and heart. I would say that I am not here to give you a hard time, or any one else. You are my brother, you have wisdom, you love the Lord and our Father. Debate and contention both really go nowhere, yet encouragement and exhortation do us well. I would love to hear those things in your heart about how you love the law and how you see the goodness and beuty of it and how it could bless the lives of others, if they had an understanding of the life that is in it.

I you are at peace witht he things I have written.

Thank you for sharing these.