Shouldn't this thread be called, "Guess what the professors thinking?"?

They weren't in mine either. Mother-in-law got sucked in several years ago and finally accomplished pulling my wife into it with her. She divorced me as a result.

So, what's behind it all? Do we care? Well, I know I do. My life has been directly and dramatically impacted by this. It's touched "home" for me. Will it touch yours?

Here's something interesting I found from CultWatch:

"The prime mover for this second wave of Mind Control is Charles Peter Wagner, born in New York City in 1930. Wagner calls the movement the "New Apostolic Reformation" and has started several organizations to promote it including the "New Apostolic Roundtable" and the "International Coalition of Apostles". Wagner is said to have been designated the "pre-eminent Apostle", although it is hard to be sure since much of their manoeuvring is done in secret. But assuming this to be the case, then Wagner would be at the top of the new pyramid, with "Translocal" apostles below him, "Apostles to the City" below them, pastors below them, and so on. In his book "Apostles Of The City: How To Mobilize The Territorial Apostles For City Transformation" Wagner's writing on the subject of Apostles to the City defines them as those, "whom the Holy Spirit gives an anointing for extraordinary authority in spiritual matters over the other Christian leaders in the same city".

Already this "Attack of the Super Apostles" has infiltrated the Christian Church. Cultwatch has been contacted by an increasing amount of people who have read our www.HowCultsWork.com article and are saying that they have seen these Mind Control practices at work in their Churches, under the guise of the Super Apostles' teaching. City Pastors have even been called to meetings where another Pastor in their city has informed them that God has given him the "Apostolic Mandate" to rule their city, and so their submission is required. Christians are being damaged while the Super Apostles themselves are growing rich."

Much of it. They are notorious for self-fulfilling prophecy. Kim Clement's meetings are emotionally charged and people walk away with a sense of euphoria. Fundamental ideologies have been modified in a subtle way that still makes sense to those in this movement. The leaders themselves openly admit that the "old-time religion", the historical fundamental Christian belief system, is standing in the way and must change in favor of this "new move of God". Kim has gone as far as to "prophecy" the deaths of Billy Graham and Oral Roberts as a gesture from God to remove the barrier that is holding back His new purpose.

Here is his prophecy:

"God says, it shall come to pass, and you know it already that My great generals who have stood the test of time shall decree before they die "it is time for me, it is well with my soul." Billy Graham, I am calling you to be with Me that the earth may see the Lord in a greater way, for your death will not bring about tears, but your death will bring about the unveiling of the Lord high and lifted up. For your death shall not bring, your death shall not bring the closing of the eyes of a generation, but your death shall bring the raising up of great evangelists of this time, says the Lord of Hosts. Billy Graham, it is time, for you have said it yourself, for this day God says, as it comes to pass that you come to Me, as it comes to pass that soon Oral Roberts comes to Me, that I will take these and I will anoint the earth with a gracious, gracious double portion and they, the people shall see the Lord and He will be high and lifted up. For there shall be cherubim and seraphim and there shall be activities in the Heavenlies that will bring the children and the teenagers to a place where they will not stop fighting before they see the promise that was given to Billy Graham, that was given to Oral Roberts, that was given to the great men of old. Do you want your children to see it, do you want your children to claim it? For it is yours tonight, says the Lord of Hosts." Kim Clement, Dec. 9, 2006.

They consider the office of Apostle as the title of the highest official in the church. It's their intent to restore the five fold ministry and as such, physically seeing Jesus is not a criteria nor does it define that office for them. These "Apostles" are the folks that have support from those involved in this movement and will be respected for the decisions they make for that body of believers.

Clement? or the movement?

I'm surprised no one has responded to this. It's a bit more close to home than I think everyone realizes and is a mechanism that is influencing much of the Protestant culture these days, directly and indirectly.

Ok, how about Kim Clement? Any takers? Anyone have any experience with this gentleman?

What is your view?

To be more specific, what about the Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elders (ACPE) headed up by C. Peter Wagner and consisting of 25 named "prophets".

What's up with this group?

Your faith and advise is much appreciated RanchersDaughter. Glad you're here.

Steve

WOW!!!

You all really reached out on this one! Thanks to all for your help in finding information. I got a bunch of emails on top of the posts here too. We're not out of the woods yet as the doc put it, but hopefully I won't need it!

What a great community you are.
Steve

Just back from the Humane Society. I think we may have gotten a miracle! Lady is doing better and is not in as much pain. She still has a fever but not severe. The doctor was optimistic and said what was probably going on was that Lady was acting out and ate clothes because of her jealousy of our Shar Pei. She may have gotten it all out of her system on Saturday when she was throwing up cloth. Since she is a bit older and was severely dehydrated from this, it took it's toll on her body. The fluids they gave her last night "was the right thing to do". The doc had me bring her back home and said we may be able to nurse her back to health without anything else. As long as she drinks plenty of water and keeps it down, we're on the right road. If not, I have to take her in again tomorrow for another fluid injection. K, gotta go boil some hamburger and rice. That's all she gets for now. Keeping my fingers crossed!

It's alright folks. The comment didn't deserve a response. That's why I didn't give one.

I went to the Humane Society. I have an appt with them in an hour. They're going to look things over and we'll make a decision from there. I applied for care credit and was denied. $50 bucks left to my name till payday. Ex is willing to help, just talked to her. This is a "family" problem, not an ex problem. I can get $250 on a payment plan with the HS but that's their limit. I have to come up with the rest. $200 left on my equity line, my son might have some cash. The ex might cough something up. I'll make a way to save her if I can and deal with the struggle later.

Pets are people too, yeah?

What makes this even more difficult, is my ex decided to get a dog for my 12 year old for her birthday last year. She got it when her mother was on vacation, she lives with her. When MIL found out, it upset her, she doesn't want pets. Two months later, the dog (and it's cage) were mysteriously stolen. My daughter was devastated! This daughter wants to be a vet herself, a real animal lover, which is why we have so many pets. Dad's a softy I guess.

I just wish it would stop raining for a moment.

Yes I know what it's like. I had a beautiful black female cocker named Lady Charmaine Caviar that had to be put to sleep when she was 8. It really hurt my older kids, they were young at the time. It hurt me a lot too. I spent a lot of time personally grooming her and she was an excellent pet. It seems like I'm reliving it with my younger kids now. I took her away after the kids loved on her for a while and didn't come home with her. I stayed with her when she got the shot until she was gone. Very hard thing to do. I named my new Lady after her.

Thanks MariJane. I see you have some real swell dogs of your own. I have 3 dogs, a cat, a rat named Dumbo, and two fish. I got my kids a Shar Pei Boxer mix for Christmas this year. His name is Rufus. Great dog, but unfortunately it upsets Lady cuz he gets all the attention. This is why she started eating clothes. Man, you try to do something nice and it upsets the whole pecking order.

Thanks for the prayers and advice everyone. I plan to check with the Humane Society and my regular vet for options. The emergency vet offered care credit but I'm still waiting on my ex to pay off our marital debt with my retirement! I won't swear here, at least not out loud. It would be nice of her to offer to help, after all this is our family pet which she abandoned along with everything else. So, my credit is in limbo at the moment. I wouldn't be able to sell the boat this time of year in Michigan. I owe more on the bike then it would sell for. It's gonna be a tough call. I don't want Lady to suffer and will have to make a decision this afternoon. I don't want the kids to suffer anymore either so I hope something good happens today.

Sorry to start the day out on a bad note...

I took my dog to the hospital last night. She ate some cloth the other day and has stopped eating. They did xrays and found she was obviously obstructed but couldn't see anything. They wanted to do surgery to the tune of two thousand dollars. As much as I love her, there's just no way I can come up with that kind of money. I explained my situation to the vet and let her know this dog is my kids best friend. She's mine too and has gotten me through some hard times as well. The vet was very kind and even donated some IV fluids. The intent was to keep Lady alive through the night so my kids have a chance to say their good byes. That's going to be an ugly scene. I'm supposed to take her in again this morning for more xrays to see if there is any change. I just let her out to use the bathroom and although she tried, no success. If surgery is required to remove the obstruction, I'm afraid I'm going to have to let her go. Does anyone know of a vet any where in the Westland/Detroit area that could do something for real cheap? Are there any funding groups out there that can help? I was up till 3am looking and sent an email to Angels4Animals only to have it returned undeliverable. I hate to lose a friend and companion simply because of lack of funds.

Maybe the reason people don't see God in church is because they are looking at the people as the source of where He exists. Big disappointment there. When people do this, they only see "beliefs". Everyone has them, they're not all the same, or even all right or all wrong. You gotta look beyond the people to see God. You take all the people away, and He still exists. You put all the people back and you cloud His image.

I'll put a little twist on this...

If God [only] lives in Believers and Christians, doesn't that just make Him only a "belief"?

I would venture to say, that if God lives "in" someone, He lives in non-believers as well. Proof is that He gives EVERY man the measure of faith, not just the elite group who profess that faith. Didn't that faith reside in you before you accepted this fact? Wasn't that measure of faith already there? Does that measure of faith leave you when you reject Him and come back again when you change your mind?

"Hell" is the absence of God's presence. None of us have ever been absent from the presence of God before, in fact, we were created in His image, body, soul, and spirit, and will die in His image. The reality is, God lives in the spiritual "realm". It's probably safe to assume that this realm exists everywhere.

God is not just a belief.