What is your view?

To be more specific, what about the Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elders (ACPE) headed up by C. Peter Wagner and consisting of 25 named "prophets".

What's up with this group?

I'm surprised no one has responded to this. It's a bit more close to home than I think everyone realizes and is a mechanism that is influencing much of the Protestant culture these days, directly and indirectly.

Ok, how about Kim Clement? Any takers? Anyone have any experience with this gentleman?

Delusion...

Clement? or the movement?

that's craziness

for 1 thing if they are calling themselves apostles. then unless they have physically seen the messiah then they can not be.so i would believe they are misguided. Blessings...Miles

They consider the office of Apostle as the title of the highest official in the church. It's their intent to restore the five fold ministry and as such, physically seeing Jesus is not a criteria nor does it define that office for them. These "Apostles" are the folks that have support from those involved in this movement and will be respected for the decisions they make for that body of believers.

I wonder how much of their 'knowledge' is based on empirical grounds?

Much of it. They are notorious for self-fulfilling prophecy. Kim Clement's meetings are emotionally charged and people walk away with a sense of euphoria. Fundamental ideologies have been modified in a subtle way that still makes sense to those in this movement. The leaders themselves openly admit that the "old-time religion", the historical fundamental Christian belief system, is standing in the way and must change in favor of this "new move of God". Kim has gone as far as to "prophecy" the deaths of Billy Graham and Oral Roberts as a gesture from God to remove the barrier that is holding back His new purpose.

Here is his prophecy:

"God says, it shall come to pass, and you know it already that My great generals who have stood the test of time shall decree before they die "it is time for me, it is well with my soul." Billy Graham, I am calling you to be with Me that the earth may see the Lord in a greater way, for your death will not bring about tears, but your death will bring about the unveiling of the Lord high and lifted up. For your death shall not bring, your death shall not bring the closing of the eyes of a generation, but your death shall bring the raising up of great evangelists of this time, says the Lord of Hosts. Billy Graham, it is time, for you have said it yourself, for this day God says, as it comes to pass that you come to Me, as it comes to pass that soon Oral Roberts comes to Me, that I will take these and I will anoint the earth with a gracious, gracious double portion and they, the people shall see the Lord and He will be high and lifted up. For there shall be cherubim and seraphim and there shall be activities in the Heavenlies that will bring the children and the teenagers to a place where they will not stop fighting before they see the promise that was given to Billy Graham, that was given to Oral Roberts, that was given to the great men of old. Do you want your children to see it, do you want your children to claim it? For it is yours tonight, says the Lord of Hosts." Kim Clement, Dec. 9, 2006.

All religion based upon the Bible is notorious for self-fulfilling prophecies... and after-the-fact fill in the blank..

So, what's behind it all? Do we care? Well, I know I do. My life has been directly and dramatically impacted by this. It's touched "home" for me. Will it touch yours?

Here's something interesting I found from CultWatch:

"The prime mover for this second wave of Mind Control is Charles Peter Wagner, born in New York City in 1930. Wagner calls the movement the "New Apostolic Reformation" and has started several organizations to promote it including the "New Apostolic Roundtable" and the "International Coalition of Apostles". Wagner is said to have been designated the "pre-eminent Apostle", although it is hard to be sure since much of their manoeuvring is done in secret. But assuming this to be the case, then Wagner would be at the top of the new pyramid, with "Translocal" apostles below him, "Apostles to the City" below them, pastors below them, and so on. In his book "Apostles Of The City: How To Mobilize The Territorial Apostles For City Transformation" Wagner's writing on the subject of Apostles to the City defines them as those, "whom the Holy Spirit gives an anointing for extraordinary authority in spiritual matters over the other Christian leaders in the same city".

Already this "Attack of the Super Apostles" has infiltrated the Christian Church. Cultwatch has been contacted by an increasing amount of people who have read our www.HowCultsWork.com article and are saying that they have seen these Mind Control practices at work in their Churches, under the guise of the Super Apostles' teaching. City Pastors have even been called to meetings where another Pastor in their city has informed them that God has given him the "Apostolic Mandate" to rule their city, and so their submission is required. Christians are being damaged while the Super Apostles themselves are growing rich."

Wow... it is a good thing they are not in my church...

They weren't in mine either. Mother-in-law got sucked in several years ago and finally accomplished pulling my wife into it with her. She divorced me as a result.

Now I really like this one SIGNIFANT DONATORS WILL RECEIVE REPORTS… If I am poor am I not

The modern definition of a mind control cult is any group which employs mind control and deceptive recruiting techniques. In other words cults trick people into joining and coerce them into staying. This is the definition that most people would agree with. Except the cults themselves of course!






A cult needs to recruit and operate using deception. Why?
Because if people knew their true practices and beliefs beforehand then they would not join. A cult needs to hide the truth from you until they think you are ready to accept it.


A cult will have a slick well-rehearsed Public Relations front which hides what the group is really like. You will hear how they help the poor, or support research, or peace, or the environment. They will tell you how happy you will be in their group (and everyone in the cult will always seem very happy and enthusiastic, mainly because they have been told to act happy and will get in trouble if they don't). But you will not be told what life is really like in the group, nor what they really believe. These things will be introduced to you slowly, one at a time, so you will not notice the gradual change, until eventually you are practicing and believing things which at the start would have caused you to run a mile.


Be very suspicious of any group that claims to be better than all the others. A religious group may say that other groups following the same religion are OK, but they are the ones who have a better grasp of the truth and they are superior to the rest. This is often just a subtle version of exclusivism.


This is one of the practices that cults are often very deceptive about. For example, first off they may give you the impression that they think you are a true Christian, Buddhist or Muslim and it's not until later that their true position is revealed.






Mind control cults keep their members so busy with meetings and activities that they become too busy and too tired to think about their involvement.

Time control also helps the cult keep their members immersed in the manufactured cult environment.

And time control helps keep cult members away from friends and family.



Together they make Mind Control.

Remember, people are not perfect, but if they employ them constantly you are most likely dealing with a cult.



One of the most common forms of commercial cults is the pressure selling organization. These groups ostensibly make money by selling goods via their sales organization, but in reality they make their money by selling goods and motivational materials to their sales organization. Using mind control they seek to enlarge and maintain their sales force, and hence their profits.

Here is where I stopped pasting from their original web site. Then if you want to know more you are taken to these pages…
I would encourage you to read the definitions they have above as a sure sign of a cult with what they have below where you go IF you want to learn MORE.

Do we common folk have anything to fear?
What could it be like, to live in a world controlled by these people?

KINGDOM LOST
A novel they will not want you to read.

Very few endorcements would you say?

"An enjoyable read", "Tense story", "Ominous, I would recommend it" - DayStar Newspaper

"Electrifying", "A story that's every bit as good a page-turner as a Frank Peretti novel", "Guaranteed to cause controversy" - The Baptist Newspaper

"If there is one novel a Christian ought to read in their lifetime, it's Kingdom Lost. It'll scare the willies out of everyone else too!" Wayne Buchanan - Radio Talk Show Host & Assemblies of God Pastor

Easily the most controversial Christian novel this century. Find out why it's driving certain church leaders wild. Buy your copy online now.


If you're hearing phrases like "Obey, Apostolic Mandate, Five Fold Ministry, Honor the Pastor, Set Man, Theocracy, Under Authority, Covering, Robbing God, or Submit" at your church, then read Kingdom Lost now.

About Kingdom Lost
Reader Comments
Order Now Online
Kingdom Lost Video
Buy at a Bookshop
NZ Distributor
Order via Mail Order
Order via Fax
Gift a Copy Anonymously
Help Advertise
Media Info
Send Feedback
Contact Us
Home

I need to Buy my copy?
Buy Your Copy of Kingdom Lost Now



Consider donating to help pay for web advertising.

All of your donation will be used to advertise Kingdom Lost in web media. Significant donators will receive reports on the campaigns they have funded. ( my favorite SIGNIFICANT DONORS) I guess being poor i am not important enough for the reports!!!!!
OH I FORGOT I THOUGHT A SURE FIRE WAY TO KNOW IT IS A CULT WAS TO NOT GIVE THEM YOUR REPORTS.....
If you would like your donation to be used for other advertising mediums, then please say so - for example in your local paper, or your local radio station.

Post donations to:
Kingdom Lost Advertising Donation
c/o Sterling Gold Publishing
P.O. Box 27-544
Mt Roskill
Auckland
New Zealand

Please include contact details if you would like feedback, your email address is especially useful.

Thank you so much for helping us help others!
Feel free to ask questions by emailing 



Correct me if I am wrong but to me the tricks that cults use for recruitment. Thier own definitions from above would make www,cultwatch.com a Deceptive CULT


Thanks for the info it was interesting..Blessings...Miles

I love websites, you can get a real 'feel' from them. Of course all new ministries require some capitol, I mean how else can they travel and 'share' thier epiphanies? There are supplies to purchase, pamphlets to print, flights, hotels and 'training' and somewhere there MUST be a 'church affiliated' site, right.
I mean even Jesus and the original apostles required cash, didn't they? Strange, I don't remember them begging, how did they come the massive amounts of cash required to spread "the word"?

Well anyway, this affiliation doesn't seem to require too much, only a humble place to call home.
from their web-site



Don't forget, there is a direct way to 'donate' just visit the web-site.

Thats right Red. Buy the way The Apostle Paul said even though I could take money I will not and he supplied his need to minister by being a tentmaker. He said he was doing this so nobody could say he was after money. ( i kinda paraphrased his quote but we all get the drift) Blessings Red....Miles

Prov 23:22-23
2 Listen to your father who begot you,
And do not despise your mother when she is old.

23 Buy the truth, and do not sell it,
Also wisdom and instruction and understanding
NKJV

Zech 11:4-6

Thus says the Lord my God, "Feed the flock for slaughter, 5 whose owners slaughter them and feel no guilt; those who sell them say, 'Blessed be the Lord, for I am rich'; and their shepherds do not pity them. 6 For I will no longer pity the inhabitants of the land," says the Lord. "But indeed I will give everyone into his neighbor's hand and into the hand of his king. They shall attack the land, and I will not deliver them from their hand."
NKJV


Some strong words about Yahweh's people and his Word...Blessings...Miles

I might not be catching what you're trying to say here Miles. Care to elaborate in your own words?

I haven't looked closely, however I do see they have a 'Store" tab. They only sell this one book though. Compare this to the Elijahlist.com and then come back and tell me we have "fleecing of the flock" going on with CultWatch. I own a website myself. Don't have anything to sell, but I could sure use help in financing it. Would any "biblically based" religious folks like to help me out without my asking? CultWatch has been around for a long time. I notice their website is new, their ministry isn't. My son designs websites for a living. Do you know what that costs? I must say, I'm a little envious of him right now, he's bringing in $30,000 this month alone. He must be sinning somehow though.

Peace,
Steve

the word is not to be sold. anything in wisdom that Yahweh may of showed you was freely given and you are to do the same.. The buy the truth if you notice is speaking about listening to your parents. The buying is your parents. Taking care of them . Yahshua spoke of this and how the pharasees polluted this concept..


Matt 15:3-9

3 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of Yahweh because of your tradition? 4 For Yahweh commanded, saying, 'Honor your father and your mother '; and, 'He who curses father or mother , let him be put to death.' 5 But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother ,"Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to Yahweh" — 6 then he need not honor his father or mother .' Thus you have made the commandment of Yahweh of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 "These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"
NKJV

This buy in this scripture is speaking of taking care of your parents when they are old. Hold onto the wisdom they have shown you. Do not sell it as it was freely given to you. As Yahshua also says.

The other is a prophecy of the shepards at the end of this age. They will do as they are doing trying to get every dollar out of you in the name of Yahweh. But they are decietfull and could care less about your salvation.you might say. He goes on and explains what thier end will be.

I hope that is clearer. I know those are some hard sayings of the scriptures.. Blessings..Miles


you see they the pharasees were saying they were giving to Yahweh by taking care of thier parents when they are old. Yahweh says no this is your duty. You therefor have made the commandment void. claiming the money and time was for Yahweh. Like this makes them special or something. which the pharaseees you can see Yahshua said they thought they were.