I wanted to strangle him. He had just crapped on my couch. I do love him though. Thanks for the input.

"You have no idea what this discussion is about. Nobody is "dictating" morality."

I know exactly what it is about. You just don't seem to have a grasp of the concept of literary devices. I'm not saying anyone is trying to dictate morality. I'm saying there is no morality in any meaningful sense apart from God.

And so are you.

I can't define exactly when a mole hill becomes a mountain but I know one when I see it. I can't define exactly what love it but I know it when I feel it.

Just because we cannot all agree on the precise definition of something that all humanity expierences does not mean that we have nothing meaningful to say about it.

I do know this: Evolution does not explain love. Insects, most animals, fish, birds, etc.., have been doing without love since the world began. Love is not necessary for the survival of the species. In fact, it can be downright suicidal at times.

Love is real in the same sense that mind is real. Neither can be quantified or put in a test tube. Where they both originate from has been debated for thousands of years up to the present. The mind is much more than the firing of synapses. Love is more than chemicals floating around in the brain. Both love and the mind in which it occurs are far more than the just the physical brain. And just as it is impossible to think consistently that mind arose from blind, deaf, dumb completely inert matter, so is it impossible to think that love came about in a vacume apart from the ultimate love that is God.

And did you ever consider this? If there is no ultimate love, no ultimate truth that is from the God of love, then love itself is just a lot of B.S. Just a little quirk of evolution that has no ultimate meaning despite how powerfull and meaningful it may feel. It then becomes a cruel joke giving me the desire for meaning, decieving me into believing there is when it all boils down to...nothingness.

Creativesoul: My point about Nietzsche is exactly that. It doesn't work. Atheism does not work. I'm glad we agree.

You avoid the biggest issue: If there is no God then why would it be wrong for me to rape, or kill, or steal (so long as I get away with it)? You can't say because "society" says it's wrong. Many societys have believed in human sacrifice, slavery, infanticide, genocide etc..Most reasonable people will not argue that those things are justifable because that society at that time said it was.

What if it's all relative for each individual? Well then it's okay to rape, kill, steal or anything else that can be imagined. What right do you have to dictate my morality? Who made you God?

When God is eliminated from His cosmos then man becomes the center of the universe. Remindes me of the saying "in the beginning God created man in His own image and ever since then man has been returning the favor." Man is making himself god. And when I become the center of my universe all hell breaks loose. If I am the measure of all things then all things must serve me.

I think I'd be a pretty pathetic, childish, god. That kind of self-centeredness comes from the mentality of a 2 year old. Without god we live in a cold mechanistic universe where we absurdly scream into eternity that god is dead and we are god even as we fade back to the dust from whence we came. How meaningless. How hopeless. So very, very dark.

Where does love come from?

Rate you? Is that some kind of trick question?

The question is not who is more moral, atheists or christians. The greater question is why there are morals at all. I submit that an atheist may be very moral, more so (seemingly) than many Christians.

He just doesn't have any good reason to be. Ultimately, atheism leads to nihlism as Nietzsche pointed out. If there is no God then why in the name of the one who doesn't exist should I do anything but please myself? Get away with anything I possibly can?

Even the greatest minds of atheism have struggled with this problem. For instance, I admire Singer. He has the courage of his convictions. He takes things to their natural conclusion promoting not only abortion but the right to kill your own children (up until they can live on their own) because the only intrinsic value a child has is the value a parent puts on him or her. He says many other things that would horrify most god-hatting atherists. But he is intellectually honest.

There is just isn't any way to justify any morality without God that rises above survival of the fittest or Nietzsche's Uberman.

I like

I always feel like I have to promote myself in order to actually meet someone. This makes me a bit umcomfortable. In the past I've always relied on simply meeting and talking in a kind of casual atmosphere. But I guess that hasn't been such a good option for me of late. Guess I'm too middle-aged or something. Been out of (dare I say it) "the game". Hate to think of it that way. Don't want it to be that way.

I am most definetly still a romantic.

Thank you for the advice, I will certainly give it a shot.

I've been to a great many of these sites recently (got tired of trying to find someone at a bar or grocery store) and most don't work or want to much money.

This one looks pretty good thus far. Hope I am not mistaken.

Greetings to all of you. Hope some of us can be friends.