Community > Posts By > Peter_Pan69
Topic:
Cure for Cancer?
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You made the claim of quackery and you have failed miserably to provide any data when asked..
You must have missed the post where I asked for the research that shows the therapy has merit?
Dismissed... Remember science is zero sum where the burden is on the person making the claim. If you cannot provide it, and yet people are making money off of it, its the definition of quackery. http://www.cancer.org/Treatment/TreatmentsandSideEffects/ComplementaryandAlternativeMedicine/DietandNutrition/gerson-therapy Gerson Therapy
Its pretty laughable really.
Other common name(s): Gerson diet, Gerson method, Gerson treatment, Gerson program Scientific/medical name(s): none Description Gerson therapy is a form of alternative cancer treatment involving coffee enemas, supplements, and a special diet that is claimed to cleanse the body, boost the immune system, and stimulate metabolism. Overview Available scientific evidence does not support claims that Gerson therapy is effective in treating cancer, and the principles behind it are not widely accepted by the medical community. It is not approved for use in the United States. Gerson therapy can be dangerous. Coffee enemas have been associated with serious infections, dehydration, constipation, colitis (inflammation of the colon), electrolyte imbalances, and even death. How is it promoted for use? Gerson therapy is considered a metabolic therapy (see Metabolic Therapy), and it is based on the theory that disease is caused by the body's accumulation of toxic substances. Practitioners believe that fertilizers, insecticides, herbicides, and other chemicals contaminate food by lowering its potassium content and raising its sodium content. Food processing and cooking adds more sodium, which changes the metabolism of cells in the body, eventually causing cancer. According to practitioners of Gerson therapy, people who have cancer have too much sodium and not enough potassium in their cells. The fruit and vegetable diet that is part of Gerson therapy is used to correct this imbalance and revitalize the liver so it can rid the body of malignant cells. Coffee enemas, also part of Gerson therapy, are claimed to relieve pain and eliminate liver toxins in a process called detoxification. The goal of metabolic therapies is to eliminate toxins from the body and enhance immune function so that the body can "fight off" cancer. Liver extract injections, pancreatic enzymes, and various supplements are said to stimulate metabolism. Proponents of metabolic therapy claim that it addresses the underlying cause of disease rather than treating the symptoms. What does it involve? Gerson therapy requires following a strict low-salt, low-fat, vegetarian diet and drinking juice from about twenty pounds of fresh fruits and vegetables each day. One glass of juice is consumed each hour, thirteen times a day. In addition, patients are given several coffee enemas each day. Various supplements, such as potassium, vitamin B12, pancreatic enzymes, thyroid hormone, and liver extracts, are used to stimulate organ function, particularly of the liver and thyroid. Sometimes other treatments such as laetrile may also be recommended (see Laetrile). Treatment is usually begun at an inpatient clinic over several weeks. The Gerson Institute does not own or operate any medical facilities and instead it refers patients to clinics it licenses. Currently the only licensed clinic is in Tijuana, Mexico. Clinic fees often exceed $4,000 per week. Treatment may last from a few months to 10 years or more. It is generally recommended for at least 2 years in cancer patients. The Gerson Institute also offers a home therapy package. What is the history behind it? One of the oldest nutritional approaches to cancer treatment, the Gerson therapy was developed by Max Gerson, MD, a German doctor who immigrated to the United States in the late 1930s. He designed the dietary program to treat his own migraine headaches. He later expanded his method to treat other conditions such as arthritis, tuberculosis, and cancer. In 1945, Gerson published a preliminary report of his results in treating cancer in the Review of Gastroenterology. The National Cancer Institute and New York County Medical Society examined records of his patients and found no evidence that the method was effective against cancer. After his death in 1959, his work was carried on by his daughter, Charlotte Gerson, who established the Gerson Institute in the late 1970s. What is the evidence? There have been no well-controlled studies published in the available medical literature that show the Gerson therapy is effective in treating cancer. In a recent review of the medical literature, researchers from the University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center identified 7 human studies of Gerson therapy that have been published or presented at medical conferences. None of them were randomized controlled studies. One study was a retrospective review conducted by the Gerson Research Organization. They reported that survival rates were higher than would normally be expected for patients with melanoma, colorectal cancer and ovarian cancer who were treated with surgery and Gerson therapy, but they did not provide statistics to support the results. Other studies have been small, had inconclusive results, or have been plagued by other problems (such as a large percentage of patients not completing the study), making it impossible to draw firm conclusions about the effectiveness of treatment. Some ideas put forth as part of the Gerson regimen, such as eating large amounts of fruits and vegetables and limiting fat intake, can be part of a healthy diet if not taken to the extreme. Researchers are continuing to study the potential anti-cancer properties of different substances in fruits and vegetables, but their actual effects are not well understood at this time. Because of this, the best advice may be to eat a balanced diet that includes 5 or more servings a day of vegetables and fruit, choosing whole grains over processed and refined foods, and limiting red meats and animal fats. Choosing foods from a variety of fruits, vegetables and other plant sources such as nuts, seeds, whole grain cereals, and beans is likely to be healthier than consuming large amounts of one particular food. Based on currently available evidence, diet is likely to play a greater role in preventing cancer than in treating it. There is very little scientific evidence to support the use of other components of the Gerson regimen, such as consuming only fresh, raw juices prepared in a certain way, eliminating salt from the diet, and “detoxifying” the liver through coffee enemas and injected liver extracts, have very little scientific evidence to support their use against cancer. Are there any possible problems or complications? These substances may have not been thoroughly tested to find out how they interact with medicines, foods, herbs, or supplements. Even though some reports of interactions and harmful effects may be published, full studies of interactions and effects are not often available. Because of these limitations, any information on ill effects and interactions below should be considered incomplete. Use of the Gerson therapy can lead to a number of significant problems. Serious illness and death have occurred from some of the components of the treatment, such as the coffee enemas, which remove potassium from the body and can lead to electrolyte imbalances. Continued home use of enemas may cause the colon's normal function to weaken, worsening constipation problems and colitis. Some metabolic diets used in combination with enemas cause dehydration. Serious infections may result from poorly administered liver extracts. Thyroid supplements may cause severe bleeding in patients who have cancer that has spread to the liver. Gerson therapy may be especially hazardous to women who are pregnant or breast-feeding. Relying on this treatment alone and avoiding or delaying conventional medical care for cancer, may have serious health consequences. What's laughable is that you think this supports your claims of quackery... Pay attention to the bolded sentences above mr. scientist... |
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Topic:
Cure for Cancer?
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So you are able to confidently call someone a quack who makes claims without real supporting evidence? Does that mean zero evidence or do you make up the rules as to what evidence is acceptable and disregard those of which you do not agree? Ok, ill explain what makes good science.
IMHO the first three are more important than the last 2 when it comes to preliminary research, as the theory develops you need to explain the later 2. Data Repeatability. Falsifiability. Clear mechanisms of action. plausible explanations that have predictive power. If your hypothesis has all of these elements, and independent researchers have repeated the process and the same results, then a given claim has merit, this does not mean its right, but that it has merit. In medicine it would still need a large RCT, Randomized clinical trial, with proper blinding, and controls. Why? Because people are complex, and not all the same, and often disease can have many pathways, or you could even find two completely separate causes that create the same symptoms. Science is like an echo camber, or a feedback system. As the initial data is handled few researchers are involved, over time as the idea is shown to have merit it gains attention. More and more researchers will provide a greater and greater quantity of data, as more data is available more in depth analysis is pursued which provides more data. This cascading effect is what the scientific community is all about, and real scientists know that challenges to an idea are a part of the process and they not only accept such challenges, but seek them out, for they are the fuel in the crucible of science. If such an idea is not falsified, but falsifiable it can usually make predictions. If we find these predictions to be true it accelerates the research. When an idea has none of these attributes...it can be dismissed. An idea which cannot be falsified is a rabbit hole, waiting to suck in the time of a researcher and provide no feedback. If no data, or data which cannot be reproduced exists then again you can spend lots of time without feedback, its a non starter to the processes of science. What do you call someone who labels another person a quack without any real supporting evidence of their own??? A scientist??? This is a zero sum game. The burden is on the claimant to gather compelling data, and then show the processes that will allow reproduction of the data. That way the methodology can be exposed, and tested as well as the data. The null hypothesis must be enforced. Where you find no such thing, you have nothing to discuss scientifically.
You made the claim of quackery and you have failed miserably to provide any data when asked.. Dismissed... |
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Topic:
Cure for Cancer?
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Your doctor is entitled to his opinion of course, but I don't think he should dismiss the aspect of the mind when it comes to a person's health any more than a psychiatrist should ignore a brain tumor in a person who is acting crazy. Do you want doctors to be supermen? A loved one once nearly died due to a medical issue. She had a team specialists working on her - all MDs. Depending on their background, they had four different perspectives on the problem, seeing the basic cause (iirc) to be: genetic, infectious agents, lifestyle, psychological/emotional. In a way, they were all right. All of them were doing their job well. It's natural to see things through the lens of your background and training. This does not make you less of a doctor. The people who are the absolute worst at seeing things in a limited way, through the lens of their training, and thus leading to wrong assessments and harmful advice, are found within CAM. Its disgusting, because they do this while throwing around words like "holistic" and "comprehensive". Doctors, at least, are honest about the lens through which they see the world. That last statement is false... My last statement, as written, was most definitely false in that its phrased as a sweeping absolutism. I didn't even qualify it with "generally" or "in my experience". Of course I don't believe that all doctors are honest about the lens through which they see the world. Even the second half of that sentence is subject to multiple interpretations - and I believe that no human being is completely honest with themselves about every aspect of the lenses through which they see the world. All I really meant was: In my experience, doctors are very honest about the fact that they are seeing things through the lens of their training and areas of specialization. They will defer to psychiatrists/psychologists if they see reason to think the causes are mental/emotion; they will defer to the opinions of another specialist on topics that are outside of their area of specialization. That group of doctors with different views acknowledged that the reason for their different views was due to their differences in training, and they readily acknowledged the limits to their knowledge. Sooooo, I want to know why you would think a doctor is honest who calls Gerson a quack when it's painfully obvious that they base the conclusion of "quackery" on ZERO supporting evidence...
I'd have to ask her. Is there some particular doctor you had in mind? Just because there is no formal research on the effectiveness of Gerson's method does not automatically make it dishonest to call someone a quack If (IF!) Gerson went around charging people money for his treatment and telling people his method was a guaranteed cancer cure-all, without properly done trials to justify his claims, well in my book that right there is enough to call him a quack. That doesn't mean his method is useless, it means he's scamming people with false promises. I'm not saying that Gerson did this, I'm saying that's one scenario in which I think its justified to call someone a quack without definite evidence that their method is useless. It's enough that they make grandiose claims to drum up business without real supporting evidence of their own. So maybe you are right, and whatever doctor you have in mind was being close-minded and dishonest. Or maybe they are using the word quack differently. So you are able to confidently call someone a quack who makes claims without real supporting evidence? Does that mean zero evidence or do you make up the rules as to what evidence is acceptable and disregard those of which you do not agree? What do you call someone who labels another person a quack without any real supporting evidence of their own??? A scientist??? |
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Topic:
Cure for Cancer?
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Your doctor is entitled to his opinion of course, but I don't think he should dismiss the aspect of the mind when it comes to a person's health any more than a psychiatrist should ignore a brain tumor in a person who is acting crazy. Do you want doctors to be supermen? A loved one once nearly died due to a medical issue. She had a team specialists working on her - all MDs. Depending on their background, they had four different perspectives on the problem, seeing the basic cause (iirc) to be: genetic, infectious agents, lifestyle, psychological/emotional. In a way, they were all right. All of them were doing their job well. It's natural to see things through the lens of your background and training. This does not make you less of a doctor. The people who are the absolute worst at seeing things in a limited way, through the lens of their training, and thus leading to wrong assessments and harmful advice, are found within CAM. Its disgusting, because they do this while throwing around words like "holistic" and "comprehensive". Doctors, at least, are honest about the lens through which they see the world. That last statement is false... From the NCI about The Gerson Therapy: http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/cam/gerson/healthprofessional Overview
This complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) information summary provides an overview of the Gerson therapy as a treatment for people with cancer. The summary includes a brief history of the development of the Gerson therapy; a review of laboratory, animal, and human studies; and possible side effects associated with the use of this treatment. This summary contains the following key information: •The Gerson therapy is advocated by its supporters as a method of treating cancer patients based on changes in diet and nutrient intake. •An organic vegetarian diet plus nutritional and biological supplements, pancreatic enzymes, and coffee or other types of enemas are the main features of the Gerson therapy. •The regimen is intended to “detoxify” the body while building up the immune system and raising the level of potassium in cells. •The regimen is empirically based on observations made by Max Gerson, M.D., in his clinical practice and on his knowledge of research in cell biology at the time (1930s–1950s). •No results of laboratory or animal studies are reported in the scientific literature contained in the Medical Literature Analysis and Retrieval System Online database. •Few clinical studies of the Gerson therapy are found in the medical literature. Many of the medical and scientific terms used in this summary are hypertext linked (at first use in each section) to the NCI Dictionary of Cancer Terms, which is oriented toward nonexperts. When a linked term is clicked, a definition will appear in a separate window. All linked terms and their corresponding definitions will appear in a glossary in the printable version of this summary. Reference citations in some PDQ CAM information summaries may include links to external Web sites that are operated by individuals or organizations for the purpose of marketing or advocating the use of specific treatments or products. These reference citations are included for informational purposes only. Their inclusion should not be viewed as an endorsement of the content of Web sites, or of any treatment or product, by the PDQ Cancer CAM Editorial Board or the National Cancer Institute. Sooooo, I want to know why you would think a doctor is honest who calls Gerson a quack when it's painfully obvious that they base the conclusion of "quackery" on ZERO supporting evidence... |
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Topic:
Cure for Cancer?
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Water under the bridge, but.. I know that the sun can cause skin cancer in some cases, but not in all cases. I have no problem with that statement. My point is that the sun does not cause skin cancer in all cases, so there are other things going on. you don't know enough about the topic to have an intelligent discussion
Yep, some things never change.... I was simply using his premise to make a logical statement. What I know or do not know about skin cancer is irrelevant. The whole point is that the cure for skin cancer was admittedly Hoxsey's topical application. Don't worry Jeannie, intelligent people observe all the facts instead of listening to an AMA leader who was ousted... Hmmmm, you refuse to show research that proves quackery and you want me to do the work for you? I think you're just trolling... |
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Topic:
Cannabis kills cancer
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You smoke enough,you might contract Lungcancer,since Weed has several times the Tar Tobacco has! "Weed" has been proven to reduce the risk of cancer for those who smoke tobacco and has no higher risk of causing cancer than not smoking anything. "Weed" has been known to kill cancer since at least 1974 and has also been known to reduce the risk of lung cancer for smokers since the 80's. |
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Topic:
Cure for Cancer?
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Water under the bridge, but.. I know that the sun can cause skin cancer in some cases, but not in all cases. I have no problem with that statement. My point is that the sun does not cause skin cancer in all cases, so there are other things going on. you don't know enough about the topic to have an intelligent discussion
Yep, some things never change.... I was simply using his premise to make a logical statement. What I know or do not know about skin cancer is irrelevant. The whole point is that the cure for skin cancer was admittedly Hoxsey's topical application. Don't worry Jeannie, intelligent people observe all the facts instead of listening to an AMA leader who was ousted... |
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Topic:
Cannabis kills cancer
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Topic:
Cannabis kills cancer
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word of god--funny how it's always humans doing the talking :) It's funny how your topics are always from some other site... |
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they believe something different from you, and who is to say that they are right or wrong? they do not deserve respect for their beliefs, like you deserve for what you believe? however sick you think it is, thats how sick they think being gay is. No, they do not deserve respect for their beliefs. Nor does anyone have to respect mine. In this country we are only legally required to allow them to express and practice their religious beliefs. And I have the right to publicly say they are sick and wrong. i see... so your right, and they are wrong... glad you clarified that for me... maybe you start a war or a fight over it, since you are so right. but you are a hypocrite, since you seem to think everyone has rights except for those you don't agree with... Where's the respect for her beliefs??? She didn't ask for, nor demand respect. "Respect" was your idea, so that makes you the hypocrite for not respecting her beliefs... i never said she was wrong for what she believes, i said she was wrong for not letting others believe what they want. can you see the difference there? i'm guessing no, because we are even having this conversation, but i'll try one last time... You'll have to keep trying... She never said she wouldn't let people believe what they want. You changed "respect" to "belief" as if that makes your claim any stronger. Fact is, you called her a hypocrite for not "respecting" other's beliefs while you do not respect hers... Re-read what she wrote and tell me if you can see the difference... Probrably not... |
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Respectfully, you are both wrong. Xenophobia, racism, fear of the unknown are all genetic survival traits. You can believe as you will, you can dismiss xenophobia's past benefits to society if you want. Can we just disagree or do we HAVE to be "wrong?" Unfortunately, yes. When the facts refute a hypothesis, those who hold to that theory are simply wrong. It's nothing personal about it, everyone is wrong from time to time. The research done in this field clearly refutes the belief that you have to be taught to hate those who aren't like you. So, you've hated women your entire life? |
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Respectfully, you are both wrong. Xenophobia, racism, fear of the unknown are all genetic survival traits. You can believe as you will, you can dismiss xenophobia's past benefits to society if you want. Can we just disagree or do we HAVE to be "wrong?" Hate says you're wrong, love says we disagree... |
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Topic:
Cure for Cancer?
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Still waiting on your research that disproves natural cures among other therapies... Make a claim, im happy to engage, I dont have time to go through every link you can dredge up from the internet with every "alternative" cancer theory. Keep waiting, you're not worth the effort as you don't understand the proper scientific method required to make an informed decision. |
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they believe something different from you, and who is to say that they are right or wrong? they do not deserve respect for their beliefs, like you deserve for what you believe? however sick you think it is, thats how sick they think being gay is. No, they do not deserve respect for their beliefs. Nor does anyone have to respect mine. In this country we are only legally required to allow them to express and practice their religious beliefs. And I have the right to publicly say they are sick and wrong. i see... so your right, and they are wrong... glad you clarified that for me... maybe you start a war or a fight over it, since you are so right. but you are a hypocrite, since you seem to think everyone has rights except for those you don't agree with... Where's the respect for her beliefs??? She didn't ask for, nor demand respect. "Respect" was your idea, so that makes you the hypocrite for not respecting her beliefs... |
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they believe something different from you, and who is to say that they are right or wrong? they do not deserve respect for their beliefs, like you deserve for what you believe? however sick you think it is, thats how sick they think being gay is. No, they do not deserve respect for their beliefs. Nor does anyone have to respect mine. In this country we are only legally required to allow them to express and practice their religious beliefs. And I have the right to publicly say they are sick and wrong. i see... so your right, and they are wrong... glad you clarified that for me... maybe you start a war or a fight over it, since you are so right. but you are a hypocrite, since you seem to think everyone has rights except for those you don't agree with... Where's the respect for her beliefs??? |
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I use God's standard, so you're right, it would be futile for you...
In an earlier reply, you state that you use your own heart and conscience. God works with your conscience and your heart. If your conscience is seared, and if your heart is corrupted, then how do you know if it is God who talking to you? How do you verify? Same goes for the Koran or Bible or whatever else you use as your "standard". How do you verify? A written standard is just that - a standard. You compare other things to it in order to determine if those other things are accurate. Jeremiah 8:8 New International Version (NIV) 8 “‘How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? I compared and found some things in the Bible to be pure BS... ??? They handled it falsely, as in they used the word of God in the wrong way, possibly to gain more power or even wealth maybe. What here exactly is BC? 9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the Lord; and what wisdom is in them? Reading the next verse, I gather that the scribes were writing things saying it was from the Lord. Again, possibly to gain more power and or wealth. Ezekiel 22:28 King James Version (KJV) 28 And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord God, when the Lord hath not spoken. |
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Revelation 21:8 King James Version (KJV) 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. See you all at the lake!!! |
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I use God's standard, so you're right, it would be futile for you...
In an earlier reply, you state that you use your own heart and conscience. God works with your conscience and your heart. If your conscience is seared, and if your heart is corrupted, then how do you know if it is God who talking to you? How do you verify? Same goes for the Koran or Bible or whatever else you use as your "standard". How do you verify? A written standard is just that - a standard. You compare other things to it in order to determine if those other things are accurate. Jeremiah 8:8 New International Version (NIV) 8 “‘How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? I compared and found some things in the Bible to be pure BS... |
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I use God's standard, so you're right, it would be futile for you...
In an earlier reply, you state that you use your own heart and conscience. God works with your conscience and your heart. If your conscience is seared, and if your heart is corrupted, then how do you know if it is God who talking to you? How do you verify? Same goes for the Koran or Bible or whatever else you use as your "standard". How do you verify? |
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