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Tue 10/22/19 12:34 AM
nope it's that English man again flowerforyou waving

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Mon 10/21/19 01:49 PM
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Mon 10/21/19 12:11 AM
As you can read in this thread the believers like to tie themselves into knots about such things as to the real name of this imagined deity that most people call god. And then proceed to go into great detail about things people like me have never heard of. Presumably these details are the 'proof' that this fairy tale story has some truth in it.

A god who only reveals herself to some while allowing others like me to deny her existence without correcting me is indeed a strange god. There is no scientific proof about her existence, hence all the many different religions and denominations within most of them. Some people say it is the same god, just worshipped in different ways, according to culture. Others say their own version is the 'right' one and the others are all wrong.

Like you, I want nothing to do with this idea and I am not among the deluded who believe in it!

As you say, we only have one life and I for one certainly intend to enjoy it to the full without any restrictions imposed by the religious authorities on what I do or who I do it with.

Onward and upward! :smile:

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Sun 10/20/19 11:58 AM
Yes, I remember now, it was Nostradamus who predicted the rise of 'Hister' as he called him, it was not an ancient prediction.

Still hoping someone will post here the prediction reference to Trump......

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Sun 10/20/19 10:06 AM
I suspect that the prophecy that mentioned an American leader called Trump who would make a claim about Jerusalem was couched in such vague terms that, like the fortune tellers, it was too general to be regarded as a 'proof'. It was probably saying something like, "One day, we'll get this back!"

Likewise the stories about 'rebuilding the temple' have been 'interpreted' by some Christians as not getting a pile of bricks and starting to make a building somewhere. The word 'temple' actually refers to a 'covenant' and the story means that people will reaffirm their belief in god. Apparently. But of course you can interpret it in any way that suits your preconceptions.

If anyone has a quote from an ancient text, correctly translated into modern English which mentions things that have recently happened or are yet to come, I would be very interested to see it. Not someone's interpretation of what it might mean, but an accurate statement that leaves no doubt by mentioning names like 'Trump' and places which are likely to be the USA and details that could not have been known that long ago.

If it was that easy then everyone would accept the truth of these predictions and there would be no argument about where they came from or what they meant. But in real life, the vast majority of people will rubbish these claims.

Occam's razor again.

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Sun 10/20/19 09:54 AM
Are you saying that prophecies have been made, and been fulfilled? That is very interesting. I remember reading about some prophecies, one of which mentioned Hitler, although apparently the phophecy used the name 'Hister'. The writer of the book decided that it's close enough to be true!

The really interesting thing is that there are no prophecies about events that have not yet happened. Strange, that! Before Hitler arrived, there was no prophecy that gave the name, date and activities for which that person became well known. These stories only appeared AFTER the end of Hitler.

If only a prophecy had been made that was clear at the time it was made, and came to pass exactly as prophesised, then perhaps non-believers would have a problem with that. But curiously, when believers quote a prophesy, it is in the realm of the apparently convincing things said by fortune tellers. As we all know, the saying of these people are carefully worded so that could be true. "You will meet a tall stranger" could have you expecting to see someone tall. And then you get on a bus and there is a tall man sitting just in front of you! Prophesy fulfilled! It's so easy to fool gullible people in this way.

The JWs are convinced that the 'Second Coming' is due any day now. They have decided that only 144 thousand people will get to heaven and that now all those places are filled. So you can be a JW and as 'bad' as you like, because you're not losing your allotted place. Several times they have all run up into the hills waiting for judgement day and then a few days later come back down again looking rather sheepish and muttering something about a possible error in their calculations.

It's always the same with predictions. Either they are so general they could mean anything at all, or so specific that when they don't happen, an error is claimed. I don't know if they have recalculated yet. Does anyone know the latest date to run into the hills? I remember reading last time that someone asked a rich JW friend if they would pass on their house and car as they will no longer be needing them. Strangely, this JW declined, which makes me thin that maybe they were doing as told but not really beliving it!

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Sun 10/20/19 05:00 AM
What is the meaning of the -A and -T suffix? The original (I think) book from which I took the test only produced four pairs of opposites. I remember the first two were I for introvert and E for extrovert, can't remember the rest. I really must try to find that book!

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Sun 10/20/19 04:56 AM
I remember my Mother used to say, "Just look at the flowers!" in answer to anyone who said there was no god. To her, the beauty in nature was proof enough of the Catholic deity she believed in. Of course this is a very naive view, but I was too polite to tell her that the flowers are as they are and it is in the mind of the human observer to say they are beautiful. In truth, not everyone sees flowers as beautiful. I think arguments like that would have been confusing to her.

In the same way, the stuff about the Higgs boson in recent posts would be further 'proof' of the exitence of god to other believers. Some might deny the existence of these exotic particles and would possibly find a phrase somewhere in the bible that could be interpreted as saying such things cannot exist. Rather like Copernicus who was excommunicated from the church for daring to say that the earth is not in fact at the centre of the universe. Our own human sense of importance is to blame for people who believe we are at the centre of everything. These days, that arrogance is still there among those who believe that we humans are in some magical way 'better' than animals. Yes, we are more clever than animals and can do amazing things (like predict the Higgs boson and then find it) but in truth we are probably not always going to be the most 'advanced' of the beings on this planet.

We are continually evolving and I suspect that the belief in some form of 'supernatural' being is nothing more than a childish distraction and will soon be forgotten about, relegated to the history of things that people believed 'in the past'. Just like those who believed that the earth is at the centre of all that is!

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Sat 10/19/19 10:46 AM

Nearly a half-century ago, Peter Higgs and a handful of other physicists were trying to understand the origin of a basic physical feature: mass. You can think of mass as an object’s heft or, a little more precisely, as the resistance it offers to having its motion changed. Push on a freight train (or a feather) to increase its speed, and the resistance you feel reflects its mass. At a microscopic level, the freight train’s mass comes from its constituent molecules and atoms, which are themselves built from fundamental particles, electrons and quarks. But where do the masses of these and other fundamental particles come from?

When physicists in the 1960s modeled the behavior of these particles using equations rooted in quantum physics, they encountered a puzzle. If they imagined that the particles were all massless, then each term in the equations clicked into a perfectly symmetric pattern, like the tips of a perfect snowflake. And this symmetry was not just mathematically elegant. It explained patterns evident in the experimental data. But—and here’s the puzzle—physicists knew that the particles did have mass, and when they modified the equations to account for this fact, the mathematical harmony was spoiled. The equations became complex and unwieldy and, worse still, inconsistent.

What to do? Here’s the idea put forward by Higgs. Don’t shove the particles’ masses down the throat of the beautiful equations. Instead, keep the equations pristine and symmetric, but consider them operating within a peculiar environment. Imagine that all of space is uniformly filled with an invisible substance—now called the Higgs field—that exerts a drag force on particles when they accelerate through it. Push on a fundamental particle in an effort to increase its speed and, according to Higgs, you would feel this drag force as a resistance. Justifiably, you would interpret the resistance as the particle’s mass. For a mental toehold, think of a ping-pong ball submerged in water. When you push on the ping-pong ball, it will feel much more massive than it does outside of water. Its interaction with the watery environment has the effect of endowing it with mass. So with particles submerged in the Higgs field.

In 1964, Higgs submitted a paper to a prominent physics journal in which he formulated this idea mathematically. The paper was rejected. Not because it contained a technical error, but because the premise of an invisible something permeating space, interacting with particles to provide their mass, well, it all just seemed like heaps of overwrought speculation. The editors of the journal deemed it “of no obvious relevance to physics.”

But Higgs persevered (and his revised paper appeared later that year in another journal), and physicists who took the time to study the proposal gradually realized that his idea was a stroke of genius, one that allowed them to have their cake and eat it too. In Higgs’ scheme, the fundamental equations can retain their pristine form because the dirty work of providing the particles’ masses is relegated to the environment.

While I wasn’t around to witness the initial rejection of Higgs’ proposal in 1964 (well, I was around, but only barely), I can attest that by the mid-1980s, the assessment had changed. The physics community had, for the most part, fully bought into the idea that there was a Higgs field permeating space. In fact, in a graduate course I took that covered what’s known as the Standard Model of Particle Physics (the quantum equations physicists have assembled to describe the particles of matter and the dominant forces by which they influence each other), the professor presented the Higgs field with such certainty that for a long while I had no idea it had yet to be established experimentally. On occasion, that happens in physics. Mathematical equations can sometimes tell such a convincing tale, they can seemingly radiate reality so strongly, that they become entrenched in the vernacular of working physicists, even before there’s data to confirm them.

But it’s only with data that a link to reality can be forged. How can we test for the Higgs field? This is where the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) comes in. Winding its way hundreds of yards under Geneva, Switzerland, crossing the French border and back again, the LHC is a nearly 17-mile-long circular tunnel that serves as a racetrack for smashing together particles of matter. The LHC is surrounded by about 9,000 superconducting magnets, and is home to streaming hordes of protons, cycling around the tunnel in both directions, which the magnets accelerate to just shy of the speed of light. At such speeds, the protons whip around the tunnel about 11,000 times each second, and when directed by the magnets, engage in millions of collisions in the blink of an eye. The collisions, in turn, produce fireworks-like sprays of particles, which mammoth detectors capture and record.

One of the main motivations for the LHC, which cost on the order of $10 billion and involves thousands of scientists from dozens of countries, was to search for evidence for the Higgs field. The math showed that if the idea is right, if we are really immersed in an ocean of Higgs field, then the violent particle collisions should be able to jiggle the field, much as two colliding submarines would jiggle the water around them. And every so often, the jiggling should be just right to flick off a speck of the field—a tiny droplet of the Higgs ocean—which would appear as the long-sought Higgs particle.

The calculations also showed that the Higgs particle would be unstable, disintegrating into other particles in a minuscule fraction of a second. Within the maelstrom of colliding particles and billowing clouds of particulate debris, scientists armed with powerful computers would search for the Higgs’ fingerprint—a pattern of decay products dictated by the equations.

In the early morning hours of July 4, 2012, I gathered with about 20 other stalwarts in a conference room at the Aspen Center for Physics to view the live-stream of a press conference at the Large Hadron Collider facilities in Geneva. About six months earlier, two independent teams of researchers charged with gathering and analyzing the LHC data had announced a strong indication that the Higgs particle had been found. The rumor now flying around the physics community was that the teams finally had sufficient evidence to stake a definitive claim. Coupled with the fact that Peter Higgs himself had been asked to make the trip to Geneva, there was ample motivation to stay up past 3 a.m. to hear the announcement live.

And as the world came to quickly learn, the evidence that the Higgs particle had been detected was strong enough to cross the threshold of discovery. With the Higgs particle now officially found, the audience in Geneva broke out into wild applause, as did our little group in Aspen, and no doubt dozens of similar gatherings around the globe. Peter Higgs wiped away a tear.

With a year of hindsight, and additional data that has only served to make the case for the Higgs stronger, here’s how I would summarize the discovery’s most important implications.

First, we’ve long known that there are invisible inhabitants in space. Radio and television waves. The Earth’s magnetic field. Gravitational fields. But none of these is permanent. None is unchanging. None is uniformly present throughout the universe. In this regard, the Higgs field is fundamentally different. We believe its value is the same on Earth as near Saturn, in the Orion Nebulae, throughout the Andromeda Galaxy and everywhere else. As far as we can tell, the Higgs field is indelibly imprinted on the spatial fabric.

Second, the Higgs particle represents a new form of matter, which had been widely anticipated for decades but had never been seen. Early in the 20th century, physicists realized that particles, in addition to their mass and electric charge, have a third defining feature: their spin. But unlike a child’s top, a particle’s spin is an intrinsic feature that doesn’t change; it doesn’t speed up or slow down over time. Electrons and quarks all have the same spin value, while the spin of photons—particles of light—is twice that of electrons and quarks. The equations describing the Higgs particle showed that—unlike any other fundamental particle species—it should have no spin at all. Data from the Large Hadron Collider have now confirmed this.

Establishing the existence of a new form of matter is a rare achievement, but the result has resonance in another field: cosmology, the scientific study of how the entire universe began and developed into the form we now witness. For many years, cosmologists studying the Big Bang theory were stymied. They had pieced together a robust description of how the universe evolved from a split second after the beginning, but they were unable to give any insight into what drove space to start expanding in the first place. What force could have exerted such a powerful outward push? For all its success, the Big Bang theory left out the bang.

In the 1980s, a possible solution was discovered, one that rings a loud Higgsian bell. If a region of space is uniformly suffused with a field whose particulate constituents are spinless, then Einstein’s theory of gravity (the general theory of relativity) reveals that a powerful repulsive force can be generated—a bang, and a big one at that. Calculations showed that it was difficult to realize this idea with the Higgs field itself; the double duty of providing particle masses and fueling the bang proves a substantial burden. But insightful scientists realized that by positing a second “Higgs-like” field (possessing the same vanishing spin, but different mass and interactions), they could split the burden—one field for mass and the other for the repulsive push—and offer a compelling explanation of the bang. Because of this, for more than 30 years, theoretical physicists have been vigorously exploring cosmological theories in which such Higgs-like fields play an essential part. Thousands of journal articles have been written developing these ideas, and billions of dollars have been spent on deep space observations seeking—and finding—indirect evidence that these theories accurately describe our universe. The LHC’s confirmation that at least one such field actually exists thus puts a generation of cosmological theorizing on a far firmer foundation.

Finally, and perhaps most important, the discovery of the Higgs particle is an astonishing triumph of mathematics’ power to reveal the workings of the universe. It’s a story that’s been recapitulated in physics numerous times, but each new example thrills just the same. The possibility of black holes emerged from the mathematical analyses of German physicist Karl Schwarzchild; subsequent observations proved that black holes are real. Big Bang cosmology emerged from the mathematical analyses of Alexander Friedmann and also Georges Lemaître; subsequent observations proved this insight correct as well. The concept of anti-matter first emerged from the mathematical analyses of quantum physicist Paul Dirac; subsequent experiments showed that this idea, too, is right. These examples give a feel for what the great mathematical physicist Eugene Wigner meant when he spoke of the “unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics in describing the physical universe.” The Higgs field emerged from mathematical studies seeking a mechanism to endow particles with mass. And once again the math has come through with flying colors.


If anyone really thinks that any one of us, at home, can duplicate the work of thousands of physicists and a budget of $10m then they must be seriously deluded.

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Sat 10/19/19 08:24 AM
I think if you do the research you will find that every belief system claims to follow 'the one true god' and every one of them also claims that the others are 'false gods' and of course you're not allowed to worship 'false gods'. All a bit confusing if you want to know which one is the true one. Yes, you can tell us, but someone from a different tradition to yours will say you're wrong and it is their god that is the true one!

I guess this is what happens when the whole thing is invented by man - men will disagree as to which one is 'right' - as if that really mattered! laugh

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Sat 10/19/19 08:09 AM
I was ENFJ last time I did the MB test - but that was a long time ago! I think I'll try it again and see if I have changed.

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Sat 10/19/19 06:18 AM
rofl rofl

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Sat 10/19/19 04:26 AM
If you're looking for friendship, then height doesn't matter. I'm lucky in that respect as any lady who says I am not tall enough is clearly not looking for the same thing (friendship) as I am!

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Sat 10/19/19 04:23 AM
Great excitement - we have now reached the point that May reached - agreement with Brussels. The details are however slightly different and as a result Boris will lose the support of the DUP MPs who supported May. But he 'might' get support from others, so, as before, we live in interesting times.

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Sat 10/19/19 04:21 AM

I'd like to see a Monty Python style god appear in the clouds and do something useful, like smiting gangsters and politicians and environmental vandals. smile2


I'd love to see that as it would settle the question of this topic and many 'believers' would be saying. "Told you so!"

Ah, but WHICH God would be the right one?

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Sat 10/19/19 04:18 AM
Blank profiles are nearly as bad as those full of what they don't like, don't want, and won't do - all so very neagative!

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Sat 10/19/19 04:16 AM
No such thing as 'sin' to a non-believer. That word only applies to the deluded followers of myths and fairy tales.

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Sat 10/19/19 04:15 AM
That's scary

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Sat 10/19/19 04:14 AM
No need for me to name her, she knows who she is flowerforyou

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Sat 10/19/19 04:12 AM
Edited by ... on Sat 10/19/19 04:12 AM
820 :smile:

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