Im trying to figure out how I could have missed this gem of a thread..

OH....and GOOD LUCK with that job interview, Tomato!

Ach, How Hillary Appropriate

More pics please

Something to recognize in the revelation of spying on allies, is that EVERYONE does it, and EVERYONE knows that EVERYONE does it.

No, no truly dramatic damage was done to any of the United States interests by the revelations.

Naturally, the people who were spied on, were required to complain bitterly and righteously. But think things through a bit more, before you jump on the "Snowden was a traitor" bandwagon. Top political leaders ALWAYS make dramatic proclamations of grand politico-emotional reactions to events. And as well, the leaders who's secrets were revealed, are all obligated to proclaim that "serious damage was done to national security by the revelations," even though nothing of the kind occurred.

The protestations are all really BS, at the end of the day.

Notice how not even ONE significant ally left any existing coalitions, or chose different paths for how they related to any other nation?

This is because international political relations are not based on any genuine idealistic affection between nations to begin with. They are based on perceived national interest alone. Nothing else.

QUOTE:

We seem to be in accord on meta-data.

But I'm not so casual about U.S. national security, and international relations.

How does it benefit the People of the United States to know that our government was spying on German Chancellor Angela Merkel; listening in on her phone calls?
QUOTE:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jun/18/edward-snowden-leaks-grave-threat

Jun 18, 2013 ... Edward Snowden's leaks are a grave threat to US national security ... We do not yet know whether Snowden jeopardized US agents, but ... Snowden's initial leaks on NSA programs also caused substantial political harm ...

We may never know the details of the harm caused.

I've never seen a one-sided coin.
QUOTE:
"What is a hero?" SS

A large sandwich?

all countries spy on each other, they all know that. maybe he figured if he exposed these people for their crimes they would think twice about it.

t8,
It's a fundamental difference between math and ethics.

Two negatives may make a positive.

But two wrongs do not make a right.

doesn't need to work with the FSB,since he is no Operative they can squeeze him so dry without him even knowing it!
Same goes when he was with the Chinese!

Don't be fooled by this idiot!

The father of "stop and frisk", a MAJOR offender/violator of the 2nd and 4th amendments!

If you think the NSA is out of control now under Oblowme, under this clown the Gestapo would pale in comparison!

It's silly to pretend Bloomberg is trying to "control".
What he says he's trying to do, and what he appears to be doing is promoting public health.

If Bloomberg wants the maximum size Pepsi to go from 32 oz to 16 oz, all a restaurant diner need do is order two.

For those drinking Pepsi at home, it can be purchased in any jumbo-sized container it's marketed in.

The public health aspect:
a) Both obesity, and diabetes are common among our population, particularly (ironically) among the poor.
The statisticians determined that the health affects of this portion control measure would pay for itself in city services saved, due to reduced obesity and diabetes.

While I enthusiastically share t8's libertarian leanings, I don't think Bloomberg's actual position is so persuasive that we have to lie or distort about it, just to make our position look better.

I'm all for free will, Liberty, and all the rest of it.
But the amount of refined sugar and or other harmful contents in these factory manufactured beverages is not natural. The human body isn't designed to handle it. I think either water, or even beer would be more healthful than soda-pop.

b) Is it really any secret what these soda-pop marketers are doing? They addict pop drinkers, and then keep them buying these beverages that can mar an automobile's finish (you don't want it on your car paint, but you're willing to drink it by the liter?!).

The history of this addiction is unmistakable.
The original recipe for Coca-Cola included cocaine. OF COURSE those that drank it got addicted.
So the "this guy doesnt understand what the word "free" means. he thinks every thing should be regulated" crowd said that's it: no more cocaine in soda-pop.
So the product addiction engineers switched to substitutes like sugar and caffeine. And sales remain brisk.

Puff, pufffff, passes.. ...all I got right now is some MD-X. Came from a Michigan dispensary. It's a hybrid, gives a nice head and body buzz.

Puff, pufffff, passes.. ...all I got right now is some MD-X. Came from a Michigan dispensary. It's a hybrid, gives a nice head and body buzz.

What this comes down to for me is whether or not he did do this on his own or he conspired with the FSB.

If he did it on his own accord with a geniune feeling that he was doing it to inform US citizens then I don't believe he is a traitor.

If he was working with the FSB then he should be brought back and shot.

Once upon a time, traitors were shot.

We seem to be in accord on meta-data.

But I'm not so casual about U.S. national security, and international relations.

How does it benefit the People of the United States to know that our government was spying on German Chancellor Angela Merkel; listening in on her phone calls?

We may never know the details of the harm caused.

I've never seen a one-sided coin.

A large sandwich?

Because they have made a fugitive of Snowden, stranded him in a country they wish to classify as "our adversary" (not necessarily an enemy), and labeled him with charges not used for nearly 100 years, they have been more than able to direct the narrative about him and his actions to fit their agenda.

Is he a hero? What is a hero?

He gave up a very good life to tell the American people that their 4th amendment rights were being violated on a large and daily scale. The programs he exposed have caught NO terrorists, but have violated our privacy and our Constitution. In that regard nothing he released has hampered any of our intelligence because the programs he exposed "caught" nobody, but have been used to prosecute Americans for other crimes with information retrieved about them through illegal means or violation of their Constitutional rights in non-terrorist related criminal cases, shared with law enforcement illegally, and covered up by nefarious, deceptive, means.

His actions exposed the illegalities and out of control, unlawful actions of our governments against its own people, its unlawfully use of illegally obtained information, its force against public utilities and businesses dealing with what people thought were their private communications and information, and its use of "national security" as the lie to cover it all up.

It's easy to control the narrative when you control the press or media in general, a secret court which the labeled charges of "espionage" would allow them, or the use of forces of government to silence the source, or keep them and their information from the exposure of a public trial (televised to a nation, perhaps the world) where they would have to answer questions they would rather not.

So while Snowden may not be a "hero" to some, though his actions and sacrifices definitely fit the criteria, he should definitely be allowed a public trial, with public exposure, to address the charges against him (which he has stated he would gladly return for) instead of a secret court led and directed by the very entities and powers he exposed.

After all, is he not innocent until proven guilty by a jury of his peers (not to be confused with a secret court)?

Yes, he admitted he did it, explained why with what little "exposure" he has been allowed, but even a murderer is given their day in court to show cause WHY they are innocent of the harsher charges that are often brought aginst them.

Lerner and the rest of the criminal elite in DC are never even brought to trial for their actions against the American people, but those who expose them usually are..... in secret courts!