we had an oldwelder in my shop who for years breathed all the welding fumes and eventualy got dementia..so please do all your forging and welding in a well ventilated area

I did not read the article I just skimmed .. I would like to think that since the United States in my humble observation is the greatest country in the world that we would set a standard and be above torture .. however we are in a war and like anything else there are those that follow codes of ethics and those that do not ..

Ah yes when one cant argue the facts go for the personal attack. so pathetic so predictable.

I am sorry I didn't think I attacked anyone .. it was not meant to

I have yet to see you post a fact.all opinion on your part.......bad ones.if you would like to see attacks just scroll up to your last post.jeeeze.....

I still think all who support torture should be subjected to it so they know well what they support. Especially since noone on this earth is better than any other human on this planet.

everyone cracks under torture, Its a poor source of Intel and degrades both the torturer and the tortured, thats why they call it a war crime and a crime against humanity. ****SEE NUREMBURG TRIALS******

if you are sickened leave. By your very whining on this site in regards to this topic, instead of taking action against it you are in fact condoning it yourself. The fact of the matter is that you cannot use the excuse of refusing to follow a law due to a "higher purpose", nor could the people of Germany. You feel like you have all the answers by dictating propoganda crapola line for line from someone elses site/paper. If it sickens you make a change, don't just whine about it

so are you pro torture then? just wondering..but you do have a point, do I write letters.sure have...do I volunteer politicaly.sure did.....but realy what can one person do except spread the word? at least I am not sitting idly by as this madness unfolds. But I am still not sure of your point? can you try to explain yourself a little better?

We in this country, like every other country in the world are bound to follow the laws. We cannot refuse to follow the laws on the grounds of religious, or moral grounds (i.e. refusing to sell the morning after pill). The people of Germany who were prosecuted at Nuremberg were following the LAW of their country. Had they not folowed it, what do you believe would have happened to them? The fact of the matter is there is not a single government out there that does not have blood on it's hands, whether it be innocent, or guilty blood. Am I pro torture, it sickens me to even think that there are people out there that can do those types of things to an animal, let alone another human. Using airliners as missles is torture, detonating a human with thousands of bb's around his midsection with c4 is torture, prosecuting kids for pulling the trigger at the wrong time is torture, abortion is torture, paying 100,000 + in federal income tax is torture, letting the government decide that my kids need certain shots to go to school is torture, having my gun rights, free speech rights, privacy rights slowly taken away is torture, watching our lying politicians move their lips on tv with promises is torture. Torture means diferent things to diferent people, there is no one size fits all. I will say this though, these people are not fighting a war under a banner of color. They hide behind women, and children, and are very willing to die for their cause. People of a violent nature only understand one thing.....violence

I agree and if all of the anti-torture people would act there would not be the problem at least not here in America anyway.

there is power in numbers, and it can be quite violence free. Sitting around on ones rear about something they feel so powerfully about is akin to giving a green light.

I agree with alot of what your saying. But Iraq had no links to 911 and no terrorism untill america invaded, and as it turns out for no valid reasone. the latest inteligence on AL-Q in Iraq estimates that only 15% of the violent acts are AL-Q related.

You have to look at the bigger picture. We disrupted almorons money supply, leaving them with limited funds. Where do you want to fight the war against extremists? You desire to fight it here, on american soil? By taking away a lot of their capital, they have effectively been limited in operations. They go for the "easier targets", monetarily speaking, represented by our men and women in uniform. Unfortunately for them our peole can fight back. You have to choose your battlefields my friend, and nobody wanted this taking place on u.s. soil.

I will add another bit of rationale to counter your thinking. You claim you are anti torture, correct, and believe we should stop it at all costs, right?

I dont except the fight them over there instead of over here theory. A heck of alot of there money comes from saudi arabia and in fact 90% of the 911 hijackers came from saudi arabia so Iam not going along with this part of your argument, and its getting late for me to go much deeper into this so we can agree to disagree for now and iwill take up the topic tomorrow

You think there have been no more attacks on our soil because of homeland security, lol? What is closer, u.s. soil, or middle eastern soil for them? The liberal mindset is one that has driven this country from a wonderful place, to a prime example of the crumbling of western civilization. We carpet bombed germany, civilian populations as well as military during ww2. We firebombed tokyo, a paper city, in ww2. We dropped two atomic bombs in ww2 on japanese civilian populaces. War is brutal my man, and to win you have to be more brutal than the other side. You do not get a surrender by firing nerf arrows at people, and hitting them with feather pillows. You my friend may want world peace, and no violence, but the only way you get peace is at the end of a gun. The very liberty you have at this moment to write your dissention is paid for by our people who are willing to sacrafice for you right now in that no account land called Iraq. You want everyone here carrying a gun, looking over their shoulder 24/7? You want to live like the israelis? We chose our battlefield for better or worse, and so far we (the civilian population) have reaped the benefits of having our troops over there. Withdraw our troops, leave the vaccuum, and see what happens. The time of our future is now, survival of our way of life is at stake and nothing less.

does that mean you approve of water boarding if we do it to someone who has done it to others?

And I am sorry to say this is the brainwashing of our people at it's best right here. Sorry Rob. This is what your illustrious baby shrub wanted you to believe and you believe it.

It is unfortunate that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, neither did Saddam have anything to do with al qaeda, none of the bombers were from Iraq, Saddam has never struck us on our soil, saddam paid for 9/11 with his life, bin laden is not even a target anymore, we were in saudi arabia when bin laden perpetrated his crime from there but occupation of iraq was somehow a logical conclusion, etc......

It is all crapola.

Where the hell is the perpetrator of 9/11???? Why do we have saddam and no bin laden? Bin laden did it, right???? How does saddam and bin laden equal each other? Where is the perpetrator of the greatest crime on our soil? Why have we not been vindicated for 9/11?

Did you even bother to read my post before you decided to respond? where in there did I make that claim?