gypsy41....... You need to remember that when you get into this can of worms you have opened, you are talking about the various philosophical positions of determined or not—determinism versus indeterminism and also on whether freedom can coexist with determinism or not—compatibilism versus incompatibilism.

I warned you I could put you to sleep!
Got to go now .... lunch is over and I am back to work.

Oh crap!!!

"Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one."
- Thomas Paine

Yes it seems like some communism in there somewhere. Our Govt is supposed to be a republic. We have others we pick to Represent us. It kind of reminds me of Moses' Father in law in the bible. I guess for example : he told the people to pick representatives for themselves Starting from the Bottom up. Each group of 10 people were to pick 1 person to represent them, (chief of 10) then ,I think they were to take a 100 of those chiefs of 10, and those 100 would pick one out of the 100 to become their chief(chief of 100), then eventually up to a chief of 1000, and then maybe a chief of ten thousand and so on until everyone was accounted for personally. Now then, each chief was accountable to those under him, and could be removed anytime he was not representing them properly and be replaced.. But ,I think it should be remembered that: More govt equals LESS FREEDOM, and LESS govt equals MORE FREEDOM. I think the idea is the least amount of govt possible is best. Do unto others as you want them to do to you.(best policy)

smo.... You have a good point. Too much government does take away a lot of our freedoms. Government interference is getting ridiculous. There are so many cases where government mandates this, that and the other thing, and all it does is interfer with people's rights.

it's gettin worse, and in a hurry.

FBI Gives Private Contractors 'Shoot to Kill' Powers
by moonwolf | February 10, 2008 at 01:43 pm | 151 views | add comment
Infragard Seal
by moonwolf
4 days ago | 4360 views

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The FBI has a new set of eyes and ears, and they're being told to protect their infrastructure at any cost. They can even kill without repercussion. Welcome Infragard the private corporate spies and police to your workplace and neighborhood, but realize they answer only to their handlers at the FBI, and only after the fact, their communications are outside the purvue of the Freedom of Information Act and members can shoot to kill with impunity.


Today, more than 23,000 representatives of private industry are working quietly with the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security. The members of this rapidly growing group, called InfraGard, receive secret warnings of terrorist threats before the public does -- and, at least on one occasion, before elected officials. In return, they provide information to the government, which alarms the ACLU. But there may be more to it than that. One business executive, who showed me his InfraGard card, told me they have permission to "shoot to kill" in the event of martial law. InfraGard is "a child of the FBI," says Michael Hershman, the chairman of the advisory board of the InfraGard National Members Alliance and CEO of the Fairfax Group, an international consulting firm.

InfraGard started in Cleveland back in 1996, when the private sector there cooperated with the FBI to investigate cyber threats.

"Then the FBI cloned it," says Phyllis Schneck, chairman of the board of directors of the InfraGard National Members Alliance, and the prime mover behind the growth of InfraGard over the last several years.

InfraGard itself is still an FBI operation, with FBI agents in each state overseeing the local InfraGard chapters. (There are now eighty-six of them.) The alliance is a nonprofit organization of private sector InfraGard members.

"We are the owners, operators, and experts of our critical infrastructure, from the CEO of a large company in agriculture or high finance to the guy who turns the valve at the water utility," says Schneck, who by day is the vice president of research integration at Secure Computing.

"At its most basic level, InfraGard is a partnership between the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the private sector," the InfraGard website states. "InfraGard chapters are geographically linked with FBI Field Office territories."

In November 2001, InfraGard had around 1,700 members. As of late January, InfraGard had 23,682 members, according to its website, www.infragard.net, which adds that "350 of our nation's Fortune 500 have a representative in InfraGard."

To join, each person must be sponsored by "an existing InfraGard member, chapter, or partner organization." The FBI then vets the applicant. On the application form, prospective members are asked which aspect of the critical infrastructure their organization deals with. These include: agriculture, banking and finance, the chemical industry, defense, energy, food, information and telecommunications, law enforcement, public health, and transportation.

FBI Director Robert Mueller addressed an InfraGard convention on August 9, 2005. At that time, the group had less than half as many members as it does today. "To date, there are more than 11,000 members of InfraGard," he said. "From our perspective that amounts to 11,000 contacts . . . and 11,000 partners in our mission to protect America." He added a little later, "Those of you in the private sector are the first line of defense."

He urged InfraGard members to contact the FBI if they "note suspicious activity or an unusual event." And he said they could sic the FBI on "disgruntled employees who will use knowledge gained on the job against their employers."

In an interview with InfraGard after the conference, which is featured prominently on the InfraGard members' website, Mueller says: "It's a great program."

The ACLU is not so sanguine.

"There is evidence that InfraGard may be closer to a corporate TIPS program, turning private-sector corporations -- some of which may be in a position to observe the activities of millions of individual customers -- into surrogate eyes and ears for the FBI," the ACLU warned in its August 2004 report The Surveillance-Industrial Complex: How the American Government Is Conscripting Businesses and Individuals in the Construction of a Surveillance Society.

InfraGard is not readily accessible to the general public. Its communications with the FBI and Homeland Security are beyond the reach of the Freedom of Information Act under the "trade secrets" exemption, its website says. And any conversation with the public or the media is supposed to be carefully rehearsed.

This article was too long to publish here so follow the link "Go to original story" below.

Source: alternet.org

infragard's website is www.infragard.net