I was talking with a friend earlier and he suggested something to me that I found kind of distressing, but which DID offer some insight into some observable phenomena. His suggestion was that cultural and social effects aside, on a very primitive level, women are attracted to men who are sexually aggressive and dominant. This goes even further than the usual suggestion for men to be confident and assertive. He suggests that from a purely biological perspective, for a man to be successful in attracting a mate, he has to promote his sexuality from the outset and keep control of the sexual side of the relationship.

If this is true, then it offers a good foundation from which to explain the "friend zone" phenomenon. A man who is too sensitive and kind and not sexually aggressive enough establishes a non-sexual pattern that is difficult to break. On the other side of the coin, it illustrates why a-holes never seem to have problems getting a girl. Nice guys may be better at the skills required to maintain a successful long-term relationship, but it appears that they (we) are lacking in the skills required to attract a mate.

On the other hand, I find this notion distressing on two fronts. One, it suggests that a successful man will dictate sexual terms to "his woman" and she will obey them. Two, it suggests that at some deep-seated level, women WANT this. My initial protest to his theory was that it's repugnant for a man to try to coerce a woman into doing something she's stated she doesn't want to do. His response was that coercion isn't wrong when it's desired. I don't LIKE this idea, but it certainly seems to explain a lot. If most women genuinely find it attractive for the man to be assertive, even to the point of coercion, I might have to bite the bullet on this one.

A nice guy can also get the girl. It's really not that hard. And not all women want to be coerced into doing things they don't want to do. Oftentimes, they get SO sick of making all the decisions, where to go eat, what movie to see, what color the curtains should be... etc... so when they FINALLY meet someone who has some ideas of his own on what to do, it's so great to be able to go along for the ride, that the girl will agree to it simply because she didn't have to plan it. The problem with that is this. Oftentimes, that is a sign of selfishness (when a guy says, I'm doing this wanna come? No? Fine, see ya later) which means she's started dating a real jerk.

So if you (a nice guy) want to meet a nice woman and stay out of "friend zone" all you have to do is... don't put away your sexual self... make it clear that you are interested in the girl not only as a friend but also as someone you'd like to get a little crazy with (if you know what I mean...) Seems like lots of you nice guys think talking about sex with a woman is rude if brought on too quickly. Well it's not. it creates tension and that's not a bad thing. Women want to get together with men who want them...


Here's the thing, you don't have to jeopardize your nice guy status by turning into a jerk, but you CAN take some of the jerk's tricks and twist them into something that a non jerk can use.

For example, instead of saying, "I'm going to see Rambo has a Heart Attack" wanna go with? No? well what would you rather see?" Before even asking her out find out things she likes and plan something you think she'll like, then invite her... IF she can't go... go without her... take your niece or something and then tell her after the fact she missed a good time. She won't want to miss the next one that's for sure. And you didn't have to be a jerk...

I think a man can be strong & assertive, w/o being rude & abusive. Educated people have progressed way past the cave man, hit em with a club thing. I would hav to strongly disagree with your friend & would not be interested in the ladies that would accept his type of ideas.

This is a very interesting concept, and in all honesty I can see how it is 100% true, but I also have to agree with everything that leslie said! Very well put!

For one mutual attraction is a necessity. Women choose men bad for them because of issues they have inside themselves. Alot of times it is the belief they can love them enough to make them change. This is a woman issue, not the men's. Women have to stop believing they can change a man and accept him the way he is or not. I have been one of these, after five bad relationships I realized I do it to myself by choosing a man that I believe I can change out of his bad boy ways. Men are not a project to devote your life too, I found this out the hard way.

A-holes don't get girls because they are a-holes, they get them cause they're ballsy enough to ask girls out and if rejected they ask someone else out. "nice" guys or rather "shy" guys don't, one can't get something if they don't pursue it. I think the term "nice" guy is often misinterpreted. You can be a nice person/good person without being sycophantic, needy, desperate, or being the creepy person who ogles chicks but never tries to talk to them. You can be nice while being assertive, and confident.

Another common issue among "nice" guys is that they are often brought up to believe that sex is something only men want and that the women is doing them some kind of favor when she agrees to have sex with them, that it's something they have to Earn rather than something which is a partnership. Women want to have sex too. Many women are brought up under the social morass that having sex is something dirty and under the fear that they might be seen as slutty if they are the agressors in regards to sex. So if the man is the "aggressor" or initiator it allows them to go along with it rather than feel like they are doing something that is going to make people think they are slutty. I don't think the point is to coerce people into doing things that they don't want to do, but rather make your needs known.

I've often fallen into that dreaded friend zone. One time in college I met this girl that lived in the same dorm. I asked her after we started dating if she found me attractive when we first met...she said no...that hurt lol. But before that, I was teasing her after we first met, I took this little stuffed animal she had and made fun of it and her for having it. She tried grabbing it and I kept holding it away from her, she chased me around and I kept pulling it away from her, I put it behind my back and she reached around me for it, then I did something completely out of my character, I leaned in and just kissed her. I didn't know she was dating an a-hole at that time, but she dumped him and started dating me after that. So I guess there is something to be said for being a bit more aggressive as long as you're not being predatory or creepy.

OK- Ephraim - you are still young and there is still hope for you. Chuck your friend and start talking to geektothetenth - he is funny and he understands what is important. Pick better friends!!!

PUA's call it "going caveman". When all else fails, just go for it. (I'm not saying I agree with it. Just saying that's what some PUA's do)



Actually, that's not always true. I know a guy who asks out literally every girl that will talk to him for longer than 5 minutes. He's only had 2 g/f's ever. And his 2nd one was actually the friend of another girl he asked out. But because the first girl turned him down, he settled for her friend. I'm just saying, being "ballsy enough" to ask a girl out doesn't always work that great either.

Hey it works better than staring at her while playing out the entirety of your conversation with her in your head assuming you have the jedi mind powers to project those thoughts to her. Then watching her ask her friends why that weird dude is staring at her.