Creativesoul wrote:
“Jesus talked to the masses as God... God, that is... the Father... That is how one can know God... but not "know" Jesus... you "know" them both IF you "know" one”

Exactly.

Matthew 11:27
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All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
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And the son reveals to those who ask... yup, yup

Perhaps I should ask you then, spider...

Do you believe that Jesus and God are, in fact, one in the same?

creativesoul,

Jesus is God. But the Father and the Son are not one in the same. Jesus talked to the Father, if they were the same being, then Jesus would have been talking to himself. God is an object of worship. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all equally God, but they are not the same entity.

Well that would definitely clarify why we have a difference of opinion/belief regarding that matter...

If I believed as you just stated that you believed, then I would concur... it is perfectly understandable

As I am sure you could agree also, with my acceptances according those differences...

creativesoul,

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Well that would definitely clarify why we have a difference of opinion/belief regarding that matter...
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The difference in opinion that we have is this: I see that the scripture allows that non-Christians might go to heaven, but I don't believe that this is the rule. I don't believe that worshiping any god or practicing any religion and living a good life will guarantee you a ticket to heaven. I think that those who live a righteous life and repent for their sins, without ever knowing God or Jesus may go to heaven. But someone who worships a strange god even though they have heard the gospel...I don't see any scripture to suggest that such a person will be saved. It's possible, but I will stick to the scriptures and be clear that the Bible offers one sure way to heaven and that is through faith in Jesus Christ. If someone has never been exposed to the gospel, then I believe they are held to a different, but strict, standard. It would be unfair to judge someone who had never heard the gospel the same way a person who rejected the gospel is treated.

spider:

The difference in opinion that we have is this: I see that the scripture allows that non-Christians might go to heaven, but I don't believe that this is the rule.

<<< I do not consider whether or not someone is is going to "heaven", it is not for me to say >>>


spider:

I don't believe that worshiping any god or practicing any religion and living a good life will guarantee you a ticket to heaven.

<<< I agree >>>


spider:

I think that those who live a righteous life and repent for their sins, without ever knowing God or Jesus may go to heaven.

<<< I agree >>>




But someone who worships a strange god even though they have heard the gospel...I don't see any scripture to suggest that such a person will be saved. It's possible, but I will stick to the scriptures and be clear that the Bible offers one sure way to heaven and that is through faith in Jesus Christ.


<<< I agree, however, to me, Jesus and God are one in the same. >>>



If someone has never been exposed to the gospel, then I believe they are held to a different, but strict, standard. It would be unfair to judge someone who had never heard the gospel the same way a person who rejected the gospel is treated.

<<< We have different ideas and beliefs regarding the number of ways one can "find God" >>>


So, there you have it... the differences which you laid out first, and then I responded are clearly understood...

The biggest difference, to me, that is shown in this particular instance, is that I do believe that Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are one in the same... all of which are conscious thought, when you really "break it all down"...

Spider wrote:
“It would be unfair to judge someone who had never heard the gospel the same way a person who rejected the gospel is treated.”

I could see some validity in this view if there were some substantial evidence that the gospel is indeed both, truth, and interpreted correctly.

However, I see no reason why anyone should necessarily believe that it is either truth, or interpreted correctly.

Therefore to say that someone “rejects” the gospel makes no sense to me.

In other words, think of it this way Spider.

If a person actually BELIEVES that gospel to be TRUE and rejects it, then they are indeed rejecting the gospel.

However, if a person sees the gospel as being potentially untrue, riddled with confusion and contradictions, and potentially nothing more than a huge misinterpretation of history. They it isn’t the ‘gospel’ that they are ‘rejecting’. It’s not like they are rejecting “God”. What they are rejecting is the idea that the gospel actually IS from God.

Surely God would not hold that against someone. That’s not at all the same as rejecting God.

And this is precisely how I feel. There is no way that I would ever dream of rejecting God!

But I will certainly reject ancient stories that are potentially based on nothing more than exaggeration and myth. And this is especially true if these stories are self-inconsistent as well as being inconsistent with correctly describing God’s creation.

You continually speak of things that appear to me to be complete contradictions.

You say that Jesus is God, except he isn’t really God he’s a separate entity.

So which is it? This is confusing.

I thought Christianity was supposed to be a monotheistic religion and have only one God. But if Jesus is separate from the father then there are at least two separate deities here. And then you speak of the Holy Spirit as being a their completely separate entity.

If this is true than Christianity is not a monotheistic religion, it’s more like Greek Mythology with at least three completely separate Gods. And then of course, there is also the Devil, which although may not be considered to be a full-fledge “god’ he is certainly a spiritual entity in this religion that he far more powerful than any mortal man. So whether you wish to include him as a ‘god’ or not, I see the devil as being a forth spiritual power that man has to deal with.

So in this sense Christianity cannot be considered to be a monotheistic religions then.

I don’t see how God could blame anyone for rejecting such a convoluted and self-contradictory story.

To reject such a story does not equate to rejecting God. On the contrary when those people move forward to search out a more rational picture of God they are still seeking to know the CREATOR of the universe.

As far as I’m concerned if the biblical God is the creator of this universe then anyone who is seeking a connection with this creator is seeking the SAME one and only God.

To claim that they are seeking ‘other gods’ is absurd, and just shows a completely ignorance of their sincere spiritual desire to know their creator.

Such people are NOT rejecting God. Pure and simple.

Oh...silly me...I did forget for a moment...I do not believe in "heaven" with physiological principles...or "hell" for that matter...

Sorry James...lol...and spider...

I uh...uh...suppose diplomacy went out the winder, huh?

spider:

there a vast differences in our belief systems...your painting a picture that I do not recognize...I absolutely love our God, and thank Him as much as I can... and he lives in me... with me... through me... and I....him...

As well as EVERYONE ELSE IN THIS WORLD

One believes what one creates... and one creates what one believes...

Nothing is seperate...

Abracadabra,

Abracadabra said...
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You say that Jesus is God, except he isn’t really God he’s a separate entity.
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When I say God, I mean Father, Son and Holy Spirit. When I say Father, I mean Father and when I say Son, I mean Son.

This is how I understand the trinity. God has a spirit, the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit unites the Father and the Son. They are ONE in spirit. They have their own minds, but the same spirit and thus character. In the Old and New Testaments, we see two thrones in heaven, not three. I believe that the Holy Spirit is what unites the Father to the Son and the Son to his bride. The Holy Spirit doesn't need a throne, because he resides in the Father, the Son and the bride.

1 Corinthians 6:17
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But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
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Abracadabra said...
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However, if a person sees the gospel as being potentially untrue, riddled with confusion and contradictions, and potentially nothing more than a huge misinterpretation of history. They it isn’t the ‘gospel’ that they are ‘rejecting’. It’s not like they are rejecting “God”. What they are rejecting is the idea that the gospel actually IS from God.
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That's between you and God. Do you really think in the deepest most secret places of your heart that you have given your best shot to understand the Bible? You have posted many things about Christianity which are simply not true. Not of my interpretation of scripture, but of most of Christianity. You confuse God and the Father as being the same and exclusive identities. Father refers to the Father and God refers to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. You didn't know that the Holy Spirit joins the Father and Son, making them one in spirit.

I feel that you have some blanks in your education on Christianity (not your fault), which you should try to fill in before you decide that the Bible is "untrue, riddled with confusion and contradictions". The only way that you will truely understand the Bible is to ask Jesus to reveal himself to you. I know that there are thousands of denomenations of Chrsitianity, but please don't come back with a remark about the number of denomenations that exist, they serve a purpose (see Romans 14). Christianity isn't one-size-fits-all, so you will see different doctrine from one Christian to another, that's because God is gentle with us and doesn't give us more truth or convictions than we can handle at a time.

creativesoul said...


What do you mean?

Spider wrote:
“Do you really think in the deepest most secret places of your heart that you have given your best shot to understand the Bible?”

More than you can ever possibly know.

Spider wrote:
“You have posted many things about Christianity which are simply not true. Not of my interpretation of scripture, but of most of Christianity.”

Just because a large number of people are following misinterpretations doesn’t make them true.

Spider wrote:
“You confuse God and the Father as being the same and exclusive identities.”

I confuse nothing. I have my own beliefs and they make perfect sense to me.


Father refers to the Father and God refers to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. You didn't know that the Holy Spirit joins the Father and Son, making them one in spirit.

Spider wrote:
”I feel that you have some blanks in your education on Christianity (not your fault), which you should try to fill in before you decide that the Bible is "untrue, riddled with confusion and contradictions".

I have studied the Bible most of my life. I’m 58 years old. I think I’ve covered all the bases. I stand by my conclusions.

Spider wrote:
“The only way that you will truely understand the Bible is to ask Jesus to reveal himself to you.”

And what makes you think I haven’t done this pray tell?

I’ve been waiting for over 50 years for “Jesus” to reveal himself to me. The ball’s in his court.

I can’t force Jesus into action.

I have a much better relationship with God from a pantheistic point of view.

My feelings toward Jesus are mixed. Not so much concerning the man himself, but concerning the interpretations surrounding the stories about him.

If Jesus was indeed an incarnation of God. He was not the only one. He was not the “only begotten son of the God of Abraham” that part I am completely convinced is false.

If Jesus was God he was God in the pantheistic sense just as was Buddha and many others. I’m still up in the air to decide if Jesus was even enlightened in that way. His teachings indicate that he was. However, his actions of provoking a confrontation with the Romans and provoking his own crucifixion raises problematic questions for me.

The idea that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of man, to me, is a totally misinterpretation of what Jesus was all about.

You can believe whatever you want in your ‘closed-minded’ approach. And I don’t mean that in a derogatory sense. But by your own proclamation you refuse to look outside of the Bible for clues concerning the true nature of your creator. You have locked yourself into one possibility only and you are totally and completely closed-minded about going outside of that source, by your very won proclamation.

That’s fine with me. More power to you if it works for you. I’m not going to lock myself into such a limited view of God and his creation.

Like Creativesoul has said, you have your view, we have ours (which may even be quite different from each other). However, both Creativesoul and myself our open to allowing all beliefs.

I do not denounce YOUR belief. If you wish to believe the things you do that’s fine. I have no desire to tell you that they are wrong for you, or that they will in any way hamper your relationship with God. If you are happy in your beliefs then this is a good thing right?

It is not my intention to tell you that you are “wrong”, I’m simply trying to explain how I feel differently about things and give my reasons why I believe the way I do.

Yet you keep telling me that what I say is ‘false’, ‘untrue’, and so forth, and that I need to ask Jesus for help.

If this is your belief. So be it. It is not mine. I believe in a rational God, and I reason about God accordingly. Nothing you have offered to me, appears to me to be ‘reasonable’.

That’s really all I can say.

I might add also, that I may not always state my views as tactfully as I should. In fact, I’m sadly aware that I have not.

I can only say that I am working toward becoming more tactful in my presentations. However, no matter how ‘tactful’ or “polite” I become, that’s not going to change my beliefs. And I sincerely believe that the Bible is extremely problematic. This is not meant at an ‘attack’ but rather a ‘concern’. And I feel that I have a right to be concerned about the true nature of my own humanity and spirituality.

That’s about the only way I can put it.

Christianity, as a religion, is “bucking” the system. By it’s very nature it refuses to look outside of the Bible (as you suggest). But there has to be a better way. God created this entire universe, he didn’t just write the Bible. I’m simply not prepared to toss out all of reality and just focus on one piece of literature that came form the Middle East and may potentially be nothing more than local folklore.

I’m just not prepared to do that, and I think it’s seriously absurd to ask anyone to do that.

When you ask me not to look outside of the Bible you are asking me to put blinders on. And at that point I need to ask why? What is it that you don’t want me to SEE?

Abracadabra said...


It sounds like your heart isn't open to Jesus, because you aren't ready for the truth, if it contradicts everything you hold dear, including science. You have to be able to offer yourself completely with no hesitation and not hold onto anything if it isn't God's truth. You accept a pantheistic view of the universe, you accept that you are not a sinner, you believe in the Big Bang, you believe in Evolution...would you really accept Jesus if you found out that those things were true?

This is sooooooo COOOL. Quoting and editing. Thanks Mike and Van!

This is obviously your misperception, and has nothing to do with truth.

I find your implication to be personally insulting. How arrogant of you to suggest such a thing.

Arrogant? To make an observation? I have been around here for a year and know that you are very attached to your world view. Anyone who has discussed anything with you would quickly know that you are very certain that the truth is pantheism and evolution. Maybe I misjudged you and you wouldn't hesitate to give up those things, but I find that strange. I held onto Evolution from first grade until I was 33, it's hardly arrogance in my post. I was simply going by the only real world example I have, myself. I could go back to the Bible and discuss how Paul fought God so hard, that Jesus had to appear before him and blind him, before Paul would accept Jesus as Lord. People tend to get attached to their beliefs, sorry if this generalization offended you.

Well as a Cathlic we were taught to think an act was a sin and i have always heard the road to hell was paved with good intentions
a better example i believe james would be murder.If you think about murdering someone you have crossed a line in your mind.Thats a sin cause the thought is morally wrong.
Say its a molester of children and you intend to kill him for his acts against kids.Your motive or intention is good(save kids from molester)but the act itself breaks a commandment so it's a sin against God.So the thought and the act are sins even though your intentions are good.

I do not believe in "heaven and/or hell" as it has been explained to me by the Christian examples throughout my life...

Therefore, the context of the differences earlier, can not apply to my belief system... I do not believe that our purpose in this life is to get into heaven... with hell as punishment for those who do not get it right... simple as that.

Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every now and again...

creativesoul said...


Join the club. The Bible offers a completely different view of each than what is taught in most Sunday schools and churches.