We all learned pi in school in the context of circles. Pi is the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter. It is an irrational number approximated by 3.14.

It turns out that pi shows up all over the place, not just in circles. Here is just one instance. Take a piece of paper and a stick. Draw several lines along the paper so that the lines are the length of the stick from each other. Then randomly drop the stick on the paper. The probability that the stick will land so that it cuts a line is exactly 2/pi, or about 64%. If one were to perform millions of trials, one could use the results to perform a very precise calculation of the value of pi without ever considering its relation to circles.

This is just one of many places pi pops up in reality, and pi is just one of several mathematical constants that appear to be woven into the fabric of the universe. One mathematician likened it to looking out over a mountain range, where the bases of the mountains are shrouded in fog, and the symbol for pi is etched into the top of each mountain - one intuitively knows that it is all connected at some basic level even if one has no idea why.

What are we to make of what physicist Eugene Wigner called the "unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics" in describing reality? The word "unreasonable" makes sense only in the context of expectations. If one expects the mathematical structure of the universe to be elegant and beautiful, the fact that it turns out to be elegant and beautiful is not unreasonable at all. It is only unreasonable if one approaches it from the perspective of the metaphysical materialist. In his universe reality consists of nothing but particles in motion randomly bumping into each other. In that universe there is no reason to expect any underlying mathematical order, no reason to expect mountain tops etched with pi to pop up all over the place, and no reason to suspect that those mountain tops are connected by a unifying order at the base.

Given materialist premises, none of this makes the slightest bit of sense. It is just a brute fact. It cannot be denied or explained. Yet there it is.

MIT cosmologist Max Tegmark has a theory. He says consider a character in a computer game (let's call him Mario) that is so complex and sophisticated that he is able to achieve consciousness. If Mario were to begin exploring his environment, he would find a lot of mathematical connections. And if continued to explore, Mario would ultimately find that his entire world is mathematical at its roots. Tegmark believes we live in a universe that is not just described by mathematics; he believes that mathematics defines all of reality, just as the reality of Mario's computer game world is defined by mathematics.

Here is the interesting part. Tegmark makes no design inference. (He is a multiverse fanatic). This is astounding. All he needs to do is take his own analogy one step further. Why is Mario's computer game world connected mathematically? Obviously, it is because that mathematical structure was imposed on the game by the game designer.

Why is the universe we live in connected by an unreasonably beautiful, elegant and effective mathematical structure? Come on Max. You are a smart guy. I know you can figure it out.

The reality of numbers is actually a big mystery in philosophy. The problems come down to four basic questions: Do numbers really exist? If so, where do they exist? How do we perceive them? How do they exert their effects on the world and on our reason? Materialistic philosophy, the doctrine behind all 'official' science today, cannot answer any of these questions. And yet mathematics (without which there would be no physics) is central to our scientific knowledge. How do you square that?


http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/how-did-mathematics-come-to-be-woven-into-the-fabric-of-reality/

it just figures... Whitehead and Russell got nowhere with this so I doubt you will either...

If kaos theory, string theories and algorithms are your thing. I recommend the 1997 Darren Aronofski movie (pie symbol)
"Faith in Kaos". It's quite the mind blower. Pie faith in kaos

This can be a tricky thing to think about.

Is mathematics so useful because it's "already there," or is it that humans managed to manufacture something (math) and design it so that it DOES work well to help us predict outcomes? After all, periodically, the math leads to answers which DON'T work so well, and then we have to invent new math.

When it comes to suggesting proof of a creator, it's a double edged deal, and the entire idea of a creator has always been (someone always asks who or what created the creator, and eventually the answer ends up at some variation on "because I said so"). After all, if EVERYTHING is math, it only implies a creator if you start from the assumption that a NON math thing existed, which artificially brought the math based universe along. It's contradictory, at least conceptually speaking. That, or you can get into one of those loop reasonings, where you try to prove something by assuming it exists.

Please note, I am not disparaging any belief, nor do I have any intention of making fun of anyone. I'm just following as many of the paths that this kind of thinking CAN take us.

Another implication loop related to this, is the idea of perfection itself. Lots of theists throughout history, have declared that perfection does NOT ever exist in the world of Man, because they realize on some level, that that could lead to the conclusion that gods don't exist, and that the order of the universe itself, has no ruler at all. Because if perfection were to exist in the natural world, it would imply that no divine power was required to make it perfect.

i never really thought of math as a creator type equation, because doing imperfect math leads to imperfect results... thats my biggest problem with astrophysics nowadays is that they can find an equation to produce any results they want, no matter how true it may be...

You might find this fascinating, This Natural Golden ratio fits everything from flowers to uterus's



The famous Fibonacci sequence has captivated mathematicians, artists, designers, and scientists for centuries. Also known as the Golden Ratio, its ubiquity and astounding functionality in nature suggests its importance as a fundamental characteristic of the Universe.

We've talked about the Fibonacci series and the Golden ratio before, but it's worth a quick review. The Fibonacci sequence starts like this: 0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55 and so on forever. Each number is the sum of the two numbers that precede it. It's a simple pattern, but it appears to be a kind of built-in numbering system to the cosmos. Here are 15 astounding examples of phi in nature.
The Fibonacci Series: When Math Turns Golden



Leonardo Fibonacci came up with the sequence when calculating the ideal expansion pairs of rabbits over the course of one year. Today, its emergent patterns and ratios (phi = 1.61803...) can be seen from the microscale to the macroscale, and right through to biological systems and inanimate objects. While the Golden Ratio doesn't account for every structure or pattern in the universe, it's certainly a major player. Here are some examples.
1. Flower petals

15 Uncanny Examples of the Golden Ratio in Nature

The number of petals in a flower consistently follows the Fibonacci sequence. Famous examples include the lily, which has three petals, buttercups, which have five (pictured at left), the chicory's 21, the daisy's 34, and so on. Phi appears in petals on account of the ideal packing arrangement as selected by Darwinian processes; each petal is placed at 0.618034 per turn (out of a 360° circle) allowing for the best possible exposure to sunlight and other factors.
2. Seed heads

The head of a flower is also subject to Fibonaccian processes. Typically, seeds are produced at the center, and then migrate towards the outside to fill all the space. Sunflowers provide a great example of these spiraling patterns.

15 Uncanny Examples of the Golden Ratio in Nature

In some cases, the seed heads are so tightly packed that total number can get quite high — as many as 144 or more. And when counting these spirals, the total tends to match a Fibonacci number. Interestingly, a highly irrational number is required to optimize filling (namely one that will not be well represented by a fraction). Phi fits the bill rather nicely.
3. Pinecones

15 Uncanny Examples of the Golden Ratio in Nature

Similarly, the seed pods on a pinecone are arranged in a spiral pattern. Each cone consists of a pair of spirals, each one spiraling upwards in opposing directions. The number of steps will almost always match a pair of consecutive Fibonacci numbers. For example, a 3-5 cone is a cone which meets at the back after three steps along the left spiral, and five steps along the right.
4. Fruits and Vegetables

Likewise, similar spiraling patterns can be found on pineapples and cauliflower.
5. Tree branches



The Fibonacci sequence can also be seen in the way tree branches form or split. A main trunk will grow until it produces a branch, which creates two growth points. Then, one of the new stems branches into two, while the other one lies dormant. This pattern of branching is repeated for each of the new stems. A good example is the sneezewort. Root systems and even algae exhibit this pattern.
6. Shells

The unique properties of the Golden Rectangle provides another example. This shape, a rectangle in which the ratio of the sides a/b is equal to the golden mean (phi), can result in a nesting process that can be repeated into infinity — and which takes on the form of a spiral. It's call the logarithmic spiral, and it abounds in nature.



Snail shells and nautilus shells follow the logarithmic spiral, as does the cochlea of the inner ear. It can also be seen in the horns of certain goats, and the shape of certain spider's webs.
7. Spiral Galaxies


Not surprisingly, spiral galaxies also follow the familiar Fibonacci pattern. The Milky Way has several spiral arms, each of them a logarithmic spiral of about 12 degrees. As an interesting aside, spiral galaxies appear to defy Newtonian physics. As early as 1925, astronomers realized that, since the angular speed of rotation of the galactic disk varies with distance from the center, the radial arms should become curved as galaxies rotate. Subsequently, after a few rotations, spiral arms should start to wind around a galaxy. But they don't — hence the so-called winding problem. The stars on the outside, it would seem, move at a velocity higher than expected — a unique trait of the cosmos that helps preserve its shape.
8. Hurricanes

9. Faces

15 Uncanny Examples of the Golden Ratio in Nature

Faces, both human and nonhuman, abound with examples of the Golden Ratio. The mouth and nose are each positioned at golden sections of the distance between the eyes and the bottom of the chin. Similar proportions can been seen from the side, and even the eye and ear itself (which follows along a spiral).

It's worth noting that every person's body is different, but that averages across populations tend towards phi. It has also been said that the more closely our proportions adhere to phi, the more "attractive" those traits are perceived. As an example, the most "beautiful" smiles are those in which central incisors are 1.618 wider than the lateral incisors, which are 1.618 wider than canines, and so on. It's quite possible that, from an evo-psych perspective, that we are primed to like physical forms that adhere to the golden ratio — a potential indicator of reproductive fitness and health.
10. Fingers

Looking at the length of our fingers, each section — from the tip of the base to the wrist — is larger than the preceding one by roughly the ratio of phi.
11. Animal bodies


Even our bodies exhibit proportions that are consistent with Fibonacci numbers. For example, the measurement from the navel to the floor and the top of the head to the navel is the golden ratio. Animal bodies exhibit similar tendencies, including dolphins (the eye, fins and tail all fall at Golden Sections), starfish, sand dollars, sea urchins, ants, and honey bees.


12. Reproductive dynamics

15 Uncanny Examples of the Golden Ratio in Nature

Speaking of honey bees, they follow Fibonacci in other interesting ways. The most profound example is by dividing the number of females in a colony by the number of males (females always outnumber males). The answer is typically something very close to 1.618. In addition, the family tree of honey bees also follows the familiar pattern. Males have one parent (a female), whereas females have two (a female and male). Thus, when it comes to the family tree, males have 2, 3, 5, and 8 grandparents, great-grandparents, gr-gr-grandparents, and gr-gr-gr-grandparents respectively. Following the same pattern, females have 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, and so on. And as noted, bee physiology also follows along the Golden Curve rather nicely.
13. Animal fight patterns

When a hawk approaches its prey, its sharpest view is at an angle to their direction of flight — an angle that's the same as the spiral's pitch.
14. The uterus

According to Jasper Veguts, a gynaecologist at the University Hospital Leuven in Belgium, doctors can tell whether a uterus looks normal and healthy based on its relative dimensions — dimensions that approximate the golden ratio. From the Guardian:



Over the last few months he has measured the uterus's of 5,000 women using ultrasound and drawn up a table of the average ratio of a uterus's length to its width for different age bands.

The data shows that this ratio is about 2 at birth and then it steadily decreases through a woman's life to 1.46 when she is in old age.

Dr Verguts was thrilled to discover that when women are at their most fertile, between the ages of 16 and 20, the ratio of length to width of a uterus is 1.6 – a very good approximation to the golden ratio.

"This is the first time anyone has looked at this, so I am pleased it turned out so nicely," he said.

15. DNA molecules

Even the microscopic realm is not immune to Fibonacci. The DNA molecule measures 34 angstroms long by 21 angstroms wide for each full cycle of its double helix spiral. These numbers, 34 and 21, are numbers in the Fibonacci series, and their ratio 1.6190476 closely approximates Phi, 1.6180339.

You can check it out with pictures and examples here http://io9.gizmodo.com/5985588/15-uncanny-examples-of-the-golden-ratio-in-nature

this actually makes some sense, because when thing grow, it's just cells dividing and duplicating..

You seem to be almost begging the question by using the word 'uncanny'.

Take the example of the planets. Observe their movements and you'll find that they all move in elipses (Kepler's first law) and the square of their periods is proportional to the cube of their semi-major axes (Kepler's third law) - uncanny!

Not uncanny at all - they are both a consequence of a single, much simpler thing: the gravitational force between two masses follows an inverse square law (Newton).

Things can seem uncanny until you make a simplifying discovery. Just because you can't explain something now doesn't mean there is anything supernatural going on; it just means you can't explain it (yet).

some of it can be just coincidences anyway, but some scientist can't/won't believe in that, so they try to make something out of nothing...

Can't reply much on a phone but ... I recall "Stephen Hawking" on this topic somewhere.

The number 6174 is a really mysterious number. At first glance, it might not seem so obvious. But as we are about to see, anyone who can subtract can uncover the mystery that makes 6174 so special.

First choose a four digit number where the digits are not all the same (that is not 1111, 2222,...). Then rearrange the digits to get the largest and smallest numbers these digits can make. Finally, subtract the smallest number from the largest to get a new number, and carry on repeating the operation for each new number.

It is a simple operation. Let's try it out, starting with the number 2005. The maximum number we can make with these digits is 5200, and the minimum is 0025 or 25 (if one or more of the digits is zero, embed these in the left hand side of the minimum number). The subtractions are:

5200 - 0025 = 5175
7551 - 1557 = 5994
9954 - 4599 = 5355
5553 - 3555 = 1998
9981 - 1899 = 8082
8820 - 0288 = 8532
8532 - 2358 = 6174
7641 - 1467 = 6174

When we reach 6174 the operation repeats itself, returning 6174 every time.
Let's try again starting with a different number, say 1789.

9871 - 1789 = 8082
8820 - 0288 = 8532
8532 - 2358 = 6174

We reached 6174 again!


When we started with 2005 the process reached 6174 in seven steps, and for 1789 in three steps. In fact, you reach 6174 for all four digit numbers that don't have all the digits the same. It's marvellous, isn't it?. And this will become even more intriguing when we think about the reason why all four digit numbers reach this mysterious number 6174

I only concern myself with one number..no 1 phD..lol.. sorry couldn't resist..lol

I agree...Keep in mind,that when you are confused about causation vs. correlation...beating a drum during an eclipse will always bring back the sun..

Fibanachi sequence?