is not turning water into wine magic

or raising one from the dead magic

how about making the lame to walk magic

be careful

you may push some away

but hey what do i know

Jesus did not perform magic, He is God and God has power of his own his power came from God not satan so therefore is not magic, it is a entirly different power source.

in your opinion

but who knows magic is magic

what of the magic performed by the followers of jesus

They didn't proform magic either, if you come in the name of Jesus it is not Magic, Magic comes from the souce of evil{Satan}
Jesus' followers have Different power source and are consittered miricles Not Magic.
Like I said, they are two different power souces, Magic is magic but Miricles are a completly different animal because you are calling on God not satan for your power.
Thats like calling a Dam plant and a nucular Bomb the same thing, though they both supply power, God's power is infanetly more greater then satans.
It may look as though at first that Satans power is greater but it is also destructive in the long run where as God's power stays for the long haul and provides power to those of us who need it from him.
The point is that there is a HUGE difference between where we Get our power and where others get their power.

then i guess magic is not all the same

be well

a rose by any other name still smells as sweet

i will agree to disagree

Why do you think God does magic?
Magic is refrence to satans power source not Gods, God does not do magic or have any other part of that subgenre.
Didn't you read my first post?
God himself says not to be a part of Witchcraft,Devonation,Tarot cards or anything like that, why Would God himself use something that he has told people not to be a part of?
Just wondering

where did i mention any of these things


God himself says not to be a part of Witchcraft,Devonation,Tarot cards or anything like that

Witchcraft, Divonation, Tarot cards or anything like that are consittered magic, so when you say that Jesus preformed Magic I had thought you had grouped Him in with those which he told us not to take part of.

lol i'm always curious about everyone's beliefs, thoughts ideas..hense the name. i can't help it. my specific thought was, in your opinion is there any specific connection, aside from the stock humans place in those objects, to why tarot cards are a conduit for such forces? or could it be anything which we believe in and use toopen that pathway?

I don't believe in magic.
However I do like pancakes/ fruit if you please. and an ocassional waffle. Although I am not a fan of syrup...it is in its'self magical. I mean the real thing. From the tree. What a wonderous event. But magic? Not to me. It is God. He gave us that tree to have that nourishment to put on our pancakes. It was planned that way.
Kat

scttrbrain...that's rather plesant and fun. though..perhaps more accurately, he gave us abilities and free will through which we could make syrup from a series of bizarre actions that led us to stake a tree and heat the sap that came out....and were your pancakes always planned? or are you not going to let me trap you into the free will/omniscient debate? lol...

Mon 10/29/07 01:43 PM
scttrbrain...that's rather plesant and fun. though..perhaps more accurately, he gave us abilities and free will through which we could make syrup from a series of bizarre actions that led us to stake a tree and heat the sap that came out....and were your pancakes always planned? or are you not going to let me trap you into the free will/omniscient debate? lol...
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Thank you. You are correct. We were given the ability to figure it all out. But, we were given a brain so we could do what He expected us to do all along.

As for my pancakes being planned always? Nope....Not by me. It was handed down to me. I was given the choice as to whether I was going to like it or not. Or even eat it. Must have. I've got the butt to prove it.
Most good things are discovered by accident. I like to cook. I makeup new recipes all the time. Accidentally, sometimes. Oil was discovered and it's uses by chance. It was however put here for us to figure out. Such as that tree that gives us syrup. Mushrooms that we search for.
The water was always here. It was underground though. Hmmmm, how can we get to this lusious thirst quencher and make it available to us easily accessible? Pump it to our homes and observe it's wondrous qualities? Now to it's almost extinction.
We become glutenous, over use and take advantage of what we were given so freely.
Sorry. Got over zealous there.
Kat
Mmmmmmmmm, pancakes/fruit. From a tree that was provided.

lol i don't disagree that plan was involved..an arrow doesn't hit a target by chance, it is aimed. and nice avoidence of the planned question. and again, as animals we act with gluttony naturally. every species will consume beyond its own benefit given the opportunity. part of a history of scarce resources and an implanted desire to survive. just because God made the universe does not mean that he didn't also make it with rules which govern actions and behavior i.e.: physics. incidentally i'm, i think, the only other person who posted here who doesn't believe in magic. oh and i prefer waffles...mmmmmmm

wonder when josh will get back to answer my questions.

just because God made the universe does not mean that he didn't also make it with rules which govern actions and behavior i.e.: physics==========================
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But....of course.
Kat

i love that point because people who oppose cosmology and the big bang theory etc..on religious views tend to overlook that we may be able to understand part of God's actions (i.e. biology) and that it actually does more to support creation than anything else. lol a massive explosion that would first have been glowing lighted heated particles that then cooled and gathered into stars scattered across the universe..funny i think i heard that somewhere before lol

To relay to your question before, It is used as a conduit because it is part of the "psychic" relm of calling on spirits {demons} to tell you what will happen, when you open your mind to such things they influence your thought processes and your spiritual well-being, by relying on those spirits {Demons} instead of God for guidence you start to abandon God and that can put you into a dangerous place.

also, While Christians actually support science because it does as you matter of fact pointed out that it proves God's exsistence.
Big bang could not of happend because something {in this case energy} cannot gather out of nothing {a big bang} there has to be a motion set into place {such as cause and effect} to move a chain reaction into play, in evolution it states that there was energy that dispersed and gathered over time but how could energy gather from nothing at all?
Evolution keeps changing every day, theorys, beliefs, times and dates but the word of God is a constant.
If scientests were to say that God was the one who made the big bang that would lead to a host of problems on all sides because God spoke everything into being, they formed from what he wanted without a bang.
Another thing is that it would have to jump into evolution is saying that God made things evolve when he clearly made Adam as a full grown adult, gathering dust and breathing life into him, he {God} would walk with him and he had made Eve from adams rib which last time I checked a little boy would not have had use for a woman, if Adam would have been a boy he would have been happy running around with the animals...lol
it's why evolution cannot work because of the fact that if monkey's did evolve into humans there would be no more monkeys left to witness.
you would also see humans evolving into other things but you don't see that either, you may see someone grow an abnormal hand on a back or some other apendage but it would be higher then that because it would be a fully functioning part but in all cases they are without perpose, plus why would God rely on evolution to make things happen when it is much easyer to just have a full grown person?
it is something like 98% of out DNA is close to apes, but that 2% is significant of a difference that it cannot possably be related to us as humans.
but that is another story all together, maybe it would be better to start a different thread for that...lol

The use of Magick can be found within a lot of denominations within Christianity. Take for instance pentecostal denominations such as The Church of God, The Assemblies of God, The Church of Jesus Christ, among many others. Such denominations believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues as spoken of in Acts chapter 2. They believe that when you are Baptized with the Holy Spirit you will become under the influence of the Holy Spirit and speak in an unknown heavenly language, dance under the influence of the Holy Spirit in worship to God, sometimes even have fits of "holy laughter" which is the joy of the Lord coming upon you refreshing you, and sometimes the Holy Spirit will bless you to give you the ability to interpret the "tongues" that are being spoken within the church to benefit the entire Body of Christ. To me this sounds a lot like becoming possessed by an unknown entity. Such possessions occur regularly in religions like Vodou (Voodoo) and Santeria, which many fanatical fundamentalist Christians consider to be evil and "of the devil." Pentecostals also believe in the practice of "laying on of hands" for the healing of physical ailments and the betterment of negative circumstances. To me this is a lot like the practice of Reiki. Pentecostals also used annointing oil (olive oil) before certain prayers. Many Pagans, Wiccans and Witches, use many annointing oils (essential oils, olive oils, ect) before and during prayers and spells. Catholicism is full of ritualistic symbolic magick... incense, oils, drinking from a chalice, eating of bread, prayers in the form of repeatative chants, ect. ... all of which are used by many Pagans, Wiccans, and Witches. Magick is Magick... it is within Christianity as well as Paganism, Wicca, and Witchcraft. The only difference is you will never really find a Christian who will admit that what they practice is Magick. The word Magick is so very taboo within Christianity.

from your local Christian Pagan Witch

In Exodus 22:18 the Hebrew word used to describe the that should be killed is "m'khashepah" which means a woman who uses spoken spells to harm others such as causing their death or loss of property. When this verse was translated and the word "m'khashepah" was translated to "witch" I feel is an extremely inaccurate translation. Not every witch practices their craft to harm others. For that matter not every witch is a woman. There have been plenty of male witches throughout history. And no "warlock" does not mean a male witch, it means "an oathbreacker."

In Deuteronomy 18:10-11 the following are the original hebrew words used to describe those who are condemned...

yid'oni: persons who make contact with spirits who are not of God.

sho'el 'ov: making forbidden contact with the dead

qosem q'samim: predicting the future by using lots or a similar system.

m'onen: predicting the future by interpreting signs in nature.

m'nachesh an enchanter, perhaps a snake charmer, because "nachash" means snake.

chover chavar: use of knot-tying to perform magic.

m'khaseph: an evil sorcerer (as in Exodus 22:18); a person using spoken spells to harm others.

doresh 'el hametim: a person who makes contact with the dead - probably by another method than sho'el 'ov.

It is important to point out that the descriptions of the type of people above do not describe every Pagan, Wiccan, or Witch that has every lived. Such practices as described above are not requirements to be a Pagan, Wiccan, or Witch. Personally I only participate in 2 of them... m'onen & qosem q'samim... but I don't think God is going to send me to hell... if there is a hell... for it.

In Galatians 5:19-20 & Revelations 21:8 the key word here is the Greek word "pharmakia" from which the English words "pharmacy," "pharmaceuticals," and "pharmacology" are derived. Interpreted literally, it refers to "the practice of preparing poisonous potions to harm or kill others." So it's safe to say, that this scripture doesn't speak of just ordinary "witchcraft" but rather something more specific, "the practice of preparing poisonous potions to harm or kill others." And as I stated earlier not every Witch practices their craft to harm others. In fact most have strict personal codes of ethics.

Did Satan not come from God also?

I don't know what vast source of knowledge your theory is based on, but you can keep it.