Matthew 3:17

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


And any reference from Jesus bout "his father" would essentially be a lie if they were one in the same being. Maybe not a "lie" specifically, but would be deceptive with the reference of "his father".

I agree... It would be illogical so assume Father and Son are the same Being given the excellent quote You've made.

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Now, the only question to contest is the context to the references of 'Father' and 'Son'.

Let's discuss then the meaning of these respective titles.

Jesus "The Word" is only seen as the "son" of God when he came in the flesh in the form of a servant. Before that, there was never any reference of "Father/Son" to either beings. That and the way Jesus came to the Earth eg., "Birth". And since Marry was a virgin, no man could be referenced as his "father" and the only other being that had anything to do with this was God "Jesus' Father" so is why he's referenced as Jesus' father. As because Jesus' being himself eg., the Word. Has always been, because -

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

************* Putting Aside The Quote At John 1: 1 ***************

Yes again, neither Father or Son is referred to in the Old Testament.

But remember, Jesus was in the habit of talking with illustrations and often he wouldn't talk without using one.

It was very pronounced hall-mark... Do You agree ?

(Matthew 13: 10 + 34)

Why put away John? There was no "father" or "son" in the old testament. The ONLY time that starts is when the Word takes on a form in the flesh. As again I said, he came in the form of a servant through natural birth. For natural birth to happen, there has to be a mom and dad. So therefor WHILE Jesus was in the flesh in the form of a servant rather then in the form of his glorious utmost power spiritual form. Again Jesus "The Word" was in the beginning with God. There was no before Jesus "The Word". For he is the one that created everything, Heaven, Earth, and everything else in between.

And why the reference of Matthew? That has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about.

Here we go again...

You are determined to promote this abrogated verse ?

David
would you tell me the scriptures you are referring to? Thanks

For one, just quoting the verse and not the rest of the post kind of is moot and can then be made to take the verse in question out of context.

On top of that, how is this verse abrogated?

abrogated = to abolish by authoritative action : annul

Nothing in that verse is abolished, that kind of is the knowledge God gave to us as he was "abrogating" the old covenant.

Catholism is not based on paganism

Why does he not say " Yes I AM Good?


Mark 10:17-19

17 Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?"

18 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 19 You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Do not defraud,' 'Honor your father and your mother.'"
NKJV

Because Jesus came as the form of a servant. He wasn't here to "puff" himself up, wasn't here to make a name for himself, wasn't proclaiming to be the greatest. He gave all the glory to God the father, as again he came as a servant, not as a master. All he ever did, he would give the glory to God the father.

so if he is god he was still giving the glory to himself. Yes

No, not specifically. The English version and or "translated" versions of the scriptures do not include Jesus' father's name. Thus the use of "God" and "LORD God" in the old testament. Well the "LORD God" came to Earth in the form of a servant through natural birth, in which then he was referred to as "Jesus".

But again as he did come in the form of a "servant", he was humble and gave all the glory to everything and anything he did to his "father".

Would you like to compare the teaching of the catholic church to what is written in the Bible?
You will find the Catholic Church does not teach what Christ taught.
Do you believe you go to heaven or hell when you die?
Do you believe you have an immortal soul?

Heaven and Hell and immortal soul doctrine is Old Pagan belief, not what the Bible teaches. This belief and others are from the old Babylonian Mystery Religion which started in the days of Nimrod
(Tower of Babel). That religion survived through the ages and empires (Babylonian Persian, Greek, and Roman)
When Constantine was trying to unite the Roman Empire he had the support of the Christians. (Edict of Milan) He called them all together at the Council of Nicaea to unify the doctrine. The doctrine of the Babylonian Mystery Religion triumphed and grew into a powerful church. This Catholic church then persecuted the true church and anyone else who would not accept their rule.
You can google the inquisition and the history of the Catholic church. You will find out all about the horror they caused and the most ungodly behavior in history.

Catholicism also has a lot of rituals not necessarily in the bible...ie. Ordination, confession to priests, infant baptism, confirmation...

Other practices such as self - flagellation, feast days of saints (including christmas), recitation of the rosary, veneration of mary...etc..also seem paganistic in nature...probably started as a way to reel in pagans to the church...

Purgatory, is also not a biblical concept..and has been used as a way to convince people to donate to the church in return for prayers and mass dedicated to " lift the souls of their dead loved ones out of purgatory"....tho, Dante's Inferno is a very interesting read...

Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.











Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary







23:32-43 As soon as Christ was fastened to the cross, he prayed for those who crucified him. The great thing he died to purchase and procure for us, is the forgiveness of sin. This he prays for. Jesus was crucified between two thieves; in them were shown the different effects the cross of Christ would have upon the children of men in the preaching the gospel. One malefactor was hardened to the last. No troubles of themselves will change a wicked heart. The other was softened at the last: he was snatched as a brand out of the burning, and made a monument of Divine mercy. This gives no encouragement to any to put off repentance to their death-beds, or to hope that they shall then find mercy. It is certain that true repentance is never too late; but it is as certain that late repentance is seldom true. None can be sure they shall have time to repent at death, but every man may be sure he cannot have the advantages this penitent thief had. We shall see the case to be singular, if we observe the uncommon effects of God's grace upon this man. He reproved the other for railing on Christ. He owned that he deserved what was done to him. He believed Jesus to have suffered wrongfully. Observe his faith in this prayer. Christ was in the depth of disgrace, suffering as a deceiver, and not delivered by his Father. He made this profession before the wonders were displayed which put honor on Christ's sufferings, and startled the centurion. He believed in a life to come, and desired to be happy in that life; not like the other thief, to be only saved from the cross. Observe his humility in this prayer. All his request is, Lord, remember me; quite referring it to Jesus in what way to remember him. Thus he was humbled in true repentance, and he brought forth all the fruits for repentance his circumstances would admit. Christ upon the cross, is gracious like Christ upon the throne. Though he was in the greatest struggle and agony, yet he had pity for a poor penitent. By this act of grace we are to understand that Jesus Christ died to open the kingdom of heaven to all penitent, obedient believers. It is a single instance in Scripture; it should teach us to despair of none, and that none should despair of themselves; but lest it should be abused, it is contrasted with the awful state of the other thief, who died hardened in unbelief, though a crucified Savior was so near him. Be sure that in general men die as they live.







Pulpit Commentary




Verse 34. - Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. These words are missing in some of the oldest authorities. They are found, however, in the majority of the most ancient manuscripts and in the most trustworthy of the old versions, and are undoubtedly genuine. These first of the seven words from the cross seem, from their position in the record, to have been spoken very early in the awful scene, probably while the nails were being driven into the hands and feet. Different from other holy dying men, he had no need to say, "Forgive me." Then, as always, thinking of others, he utters this prayer, uttering it, too, as Stier well observes, with the same consciousness which had been formerly expressed, "Father, I know that thou hearest me always." "His intercession has this for its ground, though in meekness it is not expressed: 'Father, I will that thou forgive them." In the same sublime consciousness who he was, he speaks shortly after to the penitent thief hanging by his side. These words of the crucified Jesus were heard by the poor sufferer close to him; they - with other things he had noticed in the One crucified in the midst - moved him to that piteous prayer which was answered at once so quickly and so royally. St. Bernard comments thus on this first word from the cross: "Judaei clamant, 'Crucifige! 'Christus clamat,' Ignosce!' Magna illorum iniquitas. seal major tun, O Domine, pietas!" And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. The rough soldiers were treating the Master as already dead, and were disposing of his raiment, of which they had stripped him before fastening him to the cross. He was hanging there naked, exposed to sun and wind. Part of this raiment was torn asunder, part they drew lots for to see who was to wear it. The garments of the crucified became the property of the soldiers who carried out the sentence. Every cross was guarded by a guard of four soldiers. The coat, for which they cast lots, was, St. John tells us, without seam. "Chrysostom," who may have written from personal knowledge, thinks that the detail is added to show "the poorness of the Lord's garments, and that in dress, as in all other things, he followed a simple fashion."






Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible





Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them,.... When he was crucified between the two thieves, and as he hung upon the cross, and while insulted and abused by all sorts of men, and put to the greatest pain and torture, he addressed himself to God his Father: the Arabic version reads, "my Father", who was so to him, not as he was man; for as such he had no father; but as he was God, being as a divine person, his beloved, and only begotten Son: and this he uses, whilst, as man, he is praying to him; partly to express his faith of relation to him; his confidence of being heard; and partly to set believers an example of praying, as he has directed, saying, "our Father", &c. and the petition put up by him is for forgiveness; which is with God, and with him only; and that for his enemies, his crucifiers: not for those who sinned the sin unto death, the sin against the Holy Ghost, who knowing him to be the Messiah, maliciously crucified him, for whom prayer is not to be made; but for those who were ignorantly concerned in it, as the next clause shows, even for his own elect, whom the Father had given him out of the world, which were among his crucifiers; for those, and not the world, he prays: and the fruit of this his prayer quickly appeared, in the conversion of three thousand of them under Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost, next following, in six weeks time. Though such might be his affection, as man, in general, as to wish for, and desire, as such, was it consistent with the divine will, forgiveness for all of them; adding,

for they know not what they do, or "are doing", meaning, in crucifying him, which was the case of many of them, and of their rulers; they did not know that Jesus was the Messiah, nor the prophecies concerning him, nor the evil they were committing in putting him to death: not that their ignorance excused their sin; nor was it without sin; nor does Christ use it as a plea for pardon, or found his intercession upon it, which is always done upon his own propitiatory sacrifice; but this is mentioned as descriptive of the persons Christ prays for, and points out a branch of his priestly office he exercises, in having compassion on the ignorant, and them that are out of the way;

and they parted his raiment, and cast lots: that is, upon his vesture, or seamless coat, and so fulfilled the prophecy in Psalm 22:18. See Gill on Matthew 27:35. See Gill on John 19:23. See Gill on John 19:24.





PS:





I have been reading PansyTilly's posts in this particular 'thread' & consequently express my 'consummate' appreciation (& corroboration) for her views. Excellent, Articulate, Vivid, & Well-Expressed!

Yes Jesus came to do the father's will. Thus what makes his father his "God". Jesus never references "our father" or "our God". Jesus is OUR God. His God was his God for his time on Earth, his father was his father for his time on Earth. Again, you'll not once find Jesus stating our Father, or our God in context of making Jesus equal to us. Remember, Jesus came in the form of a servant. He wasn't coming as our master, or as our God to it's fullest extent of the meaning. He came in a form full of love and compassion to fulfill one covenant's prophecy and give us a new covenant signed in his blood. Praise to the name great God ole mighty Jesus Christ <3!<3!<3!

No cowboy...our views on the matter are not the same.

Kaust pointed out that he agreed with my views...then you react on it as if agreeing with him but at the same time saying that jesus is the same as God, which is totally so far removed from everything that i have pointed out.

Doing that misleads people to think that we have the same opinion on the matter. We dont.

God is God. Jesus is the son of God. Jesus is not the same as God.

He came as master AND servant AND messiah because he is the word of God made flesh, come to the world to fulfill God's will.

It is God who is compassionate and merciful enough to send His son in order that we (both Jews and Gentiles) be given the opportunity to be saved, through Christ...such that even those who are not born into the people of God can become the adoptive children of God through Christ. In this way, God is also our Father in heaven.

This is why Jesus is the way, the truth and the light. Nobody comes to the Father except through Jesus.

We are not equal to Jesus, because he is the sole mediator between us and God. His ministry on earth was to set the example on how we may be acceptable for the kingdom of God.... he treated his disciples as brothers, sisters, and friends, through our faith and obedience to God's word and will -- as exemplified by Jesus.

Jesus is doing God's will, not his own. God is God. Jesus is Jesus. They are not equals. Jesus is not God.

Why are they not? How are they different?

John 10:30

30 I and my Father are one.




Isaiah 41:13

13 For I the Lord thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, Fear not; I will help thee.

Exodus 20:

2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.


Now your turn to point out any other "being" Jesus himself says as being our God and or is indifferent to what Jesus has said in previous cited verses.



Read chapter 2 of genesis, recap of chapter 1 but goes into more full detail. And explain then why you keep trying to put Jesus as our brother, when he is in actuality our father. He is the one that created us. We are not brother's and sisters with Jesus Christ. His father is not ours. Please cite some verse the explain Jesus to be a "brother or sister" to us and that we share the same father as Jesus Christ.



Not to be a stick in the mud. But please quote the verse(s) that state Jesus is not God. And for the verses that say he came not to do his own will but his father's, please quote the exact terminology used, for we are not brother's and sister's of Jesus Christ. He always says his father this, his father that, HIS father. Jesus' father is not our own. For it is Jesus himself whom created us.

He's not the mediator between man and God, he is our God. He is our judge from the beginning to the end. We are judge by the Word of God and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us in whom we call Jesus.

Read Genesis 2, goes into fuller detail then chapter 1. Chapter 2 says LORD God did this or that, Jesus Christ is LORD God, for he is the Lord.

And all things were created by Christ

John 1:3

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

And later confirms this by the following - Jeremiah 1:5

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Notice who he says created this person in question..... Jesus Christ is the creator of the world, the stars, even Heaven itself. Jesus Christ is God almighty!!!