Don't know Pansytilly, think Jesus disagrees with you.

Exodus 20:2

2 I am the Lord THY GOD, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Luke 4:12

12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord THY GOD.


No where will you ever see Jesus referring to his father or his God as our father or our God, for it is Jesus Christ whom is our father and our God in which he repeatedly states throughout the scriptures. :)

Jesus was at the Exodus?

Jesus is LORD God in the flesh, BEFORE he took on the flesh form he was not referred to as "Jesus" he was LORD God, then LORD God came in the flesh in a barn and was named Jesus Christ.

And as why some scriptures of the Old testament say "LORD God" or some will say "God".

God sent his son, born of a woman, to be subject to the law. Jesus is the son of God.

Jesus prayed to God, his father. He did not pray to himself.

Jesus said that whatever we would ask of the God, to pray in Jesus' name, so the the the father may be glorified in the son.

Jesus ascended and sat at the right hand of God. He did not sit as God.

God is glorified thru Christ, and Christ is glorified by God.

Jesus is the Word of God made flesh, so that all those in the flesh who believes in him may be saved thru him.

God is not Jesus. Jesus is not God.

God is Yahweh. Jesus is Christ.

Jesus acknowledges God as his father, God acknowledges Jesus as his son.

It is simply put, and simply understood.

"Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ."

"God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord."

"The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not."

I am not so presumptive as to know the mind of the Lord and declare whether Jesus agrees with either of us or not.

But I know what i read, and i know what i understood.

May God bless you, thru Christ, our Lord.

I mostly agree with what you are saying. I think a lot of history is not black and white but more shades of grey. Most writings are slanted by whoever writes them. For example, no one would are write anything bad about Constantine when he was alive.
From what I have read. the persecution of the Christians started with Nero (64 AD). He needed a scapegoat when things were bad. The Christians were just different enough that persecution was popular. By 302 AD the Diocletian Persecution took all the Christians rights away.
306 AD Constantine came to power. The Roman Empire was ruled by four different commanders and the persecution was getting unpopular. People were seeing the lies told about the Christians. Constantine could see this and in 313 AD gave the Christians their rights back with the Edict of Milan. After being badly persecuted for 10 years, the Christians were 100% behind Constantine.
This was a wise political move for Constantine, he wanted to be the sole Commander of the Roman Empire. The more Christians the better, so he called the Council of Nicaea (325 AD), to unite the Christians.
Constantine was pagan and couldn't care less what they decided as long as they were united and supported him.

" The Babylonian mystery religion started by Nimrod had survived through the ages. Through the empires of Babylon, Persia, Greece it had survived the collapse of the empires. Just like the catholic church survived the collapse of the roman Empire."

The priests of the Babylonian Mystery religion took control of the Council on Nicaea. The true Christians were shoved aside and later persecuted as badly or worse than before. This is documented in the history of the inquisition.

All you say is true, taken out of context, but true. Let me ask you one simple question, did Jesus EVER say who he referred to as "Father/God" as being our "Father/God". Did he ever put himself at the level of being a "brother" to us?

Meaning of words come into a huge part in what they mean and why they were used. Yes Jesus referred to his father as "Father/God" but you also have to keep in mind Jesus came in the form of a servant, he didn't come in all his glory and power. So again I ask as this will clear all this us if Jesus ever said "our" God/Father or referred to his father as our father with a "your God" in context directed towards God the father.

I dont think so...

Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Lamb of God, Master and Savior. Though he is one with God, he did not claim to be God, neither did he claim God's glory as his own. No claims of Jesus being the same as God were also made in the letters. It is always the glory of God the Father, thru his Son.

Old testament prophesies referred to the savior to be sent by God -- Jesus. Not God himself.

Revelations make the distinction between God and the Lamb of God as well.

Jesus said that our father is that whom we serve. If our works prove false, then our god is false. That if we recognize God, then we would recognize him as being the Son of God, and we would do God's will, just as he does God's will. He may not have explicitly used the sentiment you are looking for (since it will obviously not satisfy you anyways) but the parables are clear, the gospels are clear, his message is clear. Old and New testaments testifies the same. He is the Son of God, not God. Even demons and the satan acknowledge and fear him as the Son of God, not God himself.

That is why he calls us to follow him (not worship him) that our works and faith may prove true, as servants of God, and thru him (Christ) we may be saved.

Searching and knowing God does not stop with Christ, rather he is the way to come to know God because he is the Son of God, the word of God, who procceeded from God.

Tho, we are servants, he has revealed to us who God is because he saw us as friends, that he would lay down his life for us in accordance to God's will. And he promised to make room for us in his Father's house should we enter the Kingdom of God. (this is in essence what brotherly Christian love is). The fulfillment of this comes after he overcomes death, by his resurrection. We are all called to be brothers and sisters in Christ, with God as our Father.

His death and resurrection made him the firstborn of many who are called to be children of God thru faith. And thus we are called to be co-inheritors of the kingdom of God and thru Christ, and be one with God as well.

Jesus and God are two different entities. They acknowledged each other. Therefore, they are not one and the same. They are not of the same level because Jesus sits at the right hand of God to intercedes for us to God, and in the end, he shall surrender everything to God. To God, not to himself.

Christ does not negate God. He is not God. He acknowledges an entity higher than himself. Therefore he cannot be God if there is an entity higher than him.

Christ's glory is the fact that he is the word of God, the power or God and the love of God, since the beginning up to the end. He is the good news of God made flesh that he may bring salvation and judgement to the world at the appointed time set by God. But he is not God.

To claim Jesus as God would be to worship and venerate him as God. Jesus is of flesh, ascended and sits at the right hand of God in flesh. That is the very essence of idolatry -- worship of that which has the image of something created or that which is physical.

But if that is your or anyone else's choice, then so be it.

Matthew 12:46-50 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.


Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.


John 7:16-18 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.


John 15:12-15 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.


1 Corinthians 8:5-6 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.


Galatians 4:1-7 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Please do keep things in context and remember the version of the scriptures are a "translated" version. It ONLY ever states "God" when in reference to Jesus' father, it's used as a name rather then a title. Not sure if God's name was originally included in the scriptures or not as I don't read Hebrew or Greek. That is where again context comes into play. Jesus and his father are one God eg., "The father and I are one". But again "God" is a title of authority, not a name or an "entity". The references in 1 Corinthians all refer to Jesus. It doesn't reference a third party in this. Jesus is our father, Jesus is our God. He is Lord as well, for again God, Lord, ect are just titles.

Lord - act in a superior and domineering manner toward (someone)

Thus why the two different titles are used towards Jesus, depending on the context. Jesus isn't the Lord o the beasts, for the beasts of this world don't have a "lord", they have a "God". They don't receive or understand instruction as in "ye shall, ye shall not". So would be mute to be Lord towards the beasts of this world. He is our Lord for God came in the form of a peasant, the form of a man, and left his glory behind. Thus also why he's referred to as "Lord God" in the old testament before he took on the form in flesh, displays the superior being to both man and beast in one title. And again many posts of the old testament when plainly stating "God" is in reference to both, for they are one God.

Matthew 4:7

7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

"You will not tempt the Lord your God".

He is at the right hand of "God".

Deuteronomy 10:17

17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

"the Lord YOUR God is God of gods"

Again, this wasn't displayed when he came in the flesh for the simple reason he came to give us instruction and teach us, not to judge the world again came in the form of a servant. He was showing the love and mercy of God, to give himself so that we may live ever more. He wasn't displaying his authority over us, he came being merciful, showing his love for us.

He could have very well brought himself down from the cross or stopped it all together, but he knew what he had to do and also that no sin is forgiven without blood fall.

Hebrews 9:22

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Jesus was at the Exodus?noway





1 Corinthians 10


10 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

Jesus was there, but not known as "Jesus". For he only received that name when he came in the flesh. But again it was Jesus the created this world and formed even you. That's why again in the old testament it jumps between "God" and "Lord God" throughout the scriptures, and even continues that same difference in titles into the new testament. Just in the new testament the Lord God is revered to as Jesus Christ. But still the same entity.

nope. i think you are confusing the topic with the philosophy of semantics. and i don't pick and choose "context". i take the bible in it's entirety.

it does not matter if it is in greek, latin, hebrew, aramaic, arabic, jewish english, chinese, russian, french, in whatever language or dialect or version. what the bible conveys is one and the same. the word of God (the way, the truth and the light) is made for the salvation of all. from the lowliest uneducated peasant who does not have the knowledge of the semantics of vocabulary (fishermen/prostitutes), to the high philosopher and theologians(priests/pharisees). <<analogy and in no way to demean>>

putting the old and new testament teaching in conflict is also not appropriate, as the new testament is the continuation and fulfillment of the old.

in the first place, we are not talking about beasts vs man, lord vs god.
in the second place, all of created was placed under Christ, until such a time when he in turn will subject all things to God.

jesus calmed the water
jesus had the fishes go into the nets
jesus cast away evil spirits
----everything on heaven and on earth, under the earth, in the waters, the dominions, the principalities, etc etc...ALL things are made through Christ, and all things shall be subject to him, and in the end, he shall subject everything to God.

Jesus is not God. God is not Jesus.

This is the declaration of the LORD to my Lord:" Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies Your footstool." Psalm 110:1, Matthew 22:44, Acts 2:34, Hebrews 1:13 ---and this culminates in the book of revelations


20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;


5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

"it is written" & "it is said" --- both of them were quoting from scripture
"if thou be the Son of God" ---not "if thou art God"

"every word that proceed from the mouth of God"
--- Jesus is the word of God. not God.

"thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and only him shall you serve"
--- Jesus did as God's will, not his own.

"thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God"
--- because of this>>"He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone."
---not tempting Jesus to throw himself but tempting God to send his angels to protect Jesus, as the Son of God should he throw himself down. and the angels did minister to him, after the devil left.

--------------
Matthew
1Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 11Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.


Luke
1And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered. 3And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread. 4And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

5And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. 7If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. 8And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

9And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:

10For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:

11And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

12And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

13And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.

He prayed to God the Father to take away the suffering he is about to endure. But he did the will of God, not his own.

In this way he was a priest of the highest order, blood sacrifice of himself for the sins of man, and he did so once, and only once. As opposed to the blood sacrifices offered by the high priests, which had to be done over and over again.

As a priest, he sits at the right hand of God and intercedes for us to God, precisely by the perfect offering he gave as per the will of God, in order that whosoever believes in him may have salvation -- the Lamb of God.

Jesus is not God, and God is not Jesus. He is of God, he comes from God and he proceeded from God, simply because he is the word of God made flesh, hence he is not God.

---------

Matthew
36Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder. 37And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. 38Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

39And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. 40And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? 41Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

42He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. 43And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy. 44And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. 45Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46Rise, let us be going: behold, he is at hand that doth betray me.

47And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people. 48Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast. 49And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him. 50And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.

51And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. 52Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. 53Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

55In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me. 56But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.


Hebrews
11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Think Jesus disagrees with you.

Isaiah 9:6

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
-

Isaiah 43:10-11

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
-

John 1:1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
-

Philippians 2:5-7

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
-

1 Timothy 3:16

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
-

Titus 2:13

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ
-

Revelation 1:8

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty
-


Yes he did pray to his father and his God, BUT does he EVER state that his father is ours? Does he ever says his God is ours? Or is it always HIS God, HIS Father. For he only had a God/Father when he was here in the form of a servant. For in the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.

And also remember the mentions of "father" in the verses you used were in reference to Jesus. For Jesus is our Father. Again Jesus never says his father is ours, nor his God is ours. Jesus is our God, our Father, our creator.

Yes, God is manifest thru Christ because no one has seen God, except the begotten. And to see Jesus is to see God, because no one can see God. That is why it is written "he is the image of the invisible God."

That is why the entire statement starts with "in the beginning", because that is how it was before he was made flesh as In isaiah. After which " the word was made flesh" which shows a separation, and "glory as the only begotten of the Father" which shows he is the Son of the Father, who is God. And eventually, the Lamb of God shall submit everything to God in the end. That is why he is alpha and omega.

But for now, he is at the right hand of God, as is the will of God, just as it is written, "the LORD said to my Lord..." Jesus has a role apart from God. God is his own being.

He did not say "i am your father, i am your god." But If you want to look at jesus as your god and father, and that he has a different god and father, that is your choice.

Jesus is still of the flesh -- an image of God, the word of God, the Lamb of God, not God.

Ok....

Okay, we've all got to remember that for CowboyGH, God is a collective.

(It's Rather Abstract, But It Is Valliant Effort At Annexing The Trinity Doctrine)