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| Topic: Physics &Nothing | |
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Edited by
dovebear
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Mon 07/22/13 09:16 AM
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Edited by
Frost379
on
Mon 07/22/13 04:19 PM
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people are talking about nothing, but what you are forgetting is that time is nothing, just a perception we created to make the day go by and created a standard along the way... so to ask if "time" was around before the big bang is a senseless question... time has never existed but in our minds.. The current understanding is that time is is not invariant, ie, it is not its own independent variable or constant. Time is variable and is interlinked with all the physical concepts of space, mass, energy, etc..., Hence space-time. All the other concepts including time are themselves still mental constructs, they exist within our mind like you say, so does every other concept. If it exists in our mind, does it then exist? Who knows, but what I know, and possibly not even this, is that I know nothing for certain. Your "time before the Big Bang argument" is akin to asking yourself, "if a tree falls in the forest, and there is no one around, does it make a sound?" If someone were living in a black hole, relative to an observer outside, time would have stopped, relative to the observer in the black hole, time is going on as usual, but he would observe the persons outside as having infinite time, in the limiting case mind you. It's all up to relativity and GR to help shed some light on this. Even though their model is most likely incorrect, as its a human made model, it does keep GPS accurate, since without the Lorentz transformations and other complicated relativistic calculations, GPS would be useless. I like to split things down into what is practical, and what is theoretical. For instance, the law of gravity is most likely incorrect as well, and there is a chance you jump off a roof and float, though this chance is negligible for practical purposes. So I can say in a practical context that if you jump off a roof, you will always fall because of gravity. Another thing is entropy, without which, there is nothing to say that the ground cannot spontaneously acquire enough potential energy and then push you off the ground. Entropy and time are intimately linked. In orde to reverse time, according to the theories, entropy of the universe would have to decrease, and this is not the case, entropy of the universe always apparently increases, that's a law, and increasing entropy is what guides time to move forward, we percieve this through our senses, and give it a name, "time", and it can be on any arbitrary scale we so choose, etc... Also, some theories out there quantize space and time like quantum electrodynamics, meaning that, there is a fundamental unit of space and time that cannot be divided any further, a quanta, instead of continuously being divided ad infinitum. |
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"What is it expanding into?" Exactly! Everything that is physical has a beginning and an end, it is finite. How can there not be an end to space yet how can there be? Been wrestling with that one for a while. It's a paradox. It's an enigma. I just want to know how to manipulate it so Pinky and me can take over this hologram. |
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people are talking about nothing, but what you are forgetting is that time is nothing, just a perception we created to make the day go by and created a standard along the way... so to ask if "time" was around before the big bang is a senseless question... time has never existed but in our minds.. The current understanding is that time is is not invariant, ie, it is not its own independent variable or constant. Time is variable and is interlinked with all the physical concepts of space, mass, energy, etc..., Hence space-time. All the other concepts including time are themselves still mental constructs, they exist within our mind like you say, so does every other concept. If it exists in our mind, does it then exist? Who knows, but what I know, and possibly not even this, is that I know nothing for certain. Your "time before the Big Bang argument" is akin to asking yourself, "if a tree falls in the forest, and there is no one around, does it make a sound?" If someone were living in a black hole, relative to an observer outside, time would have stopped, relative to the observer in the black hole, time is going on as usual, but he would observe the persons outside as having infinite time, in the limiting case mind you. It's all up to relativity and GR to help shed some light on this. Even though their model is most likely incorrect, as its a human made model, it does keep GPS accurate, since without the Lorentz transformations and other complicated relativistic calculations, GPS would be useless. I like to split things down into what is practical, and what is theoretical. For instance, the law of gravity is most likely incorrect as well, and there is a chance you jump off a roof and float, though this chance is negligible for practical purposes. So I can say in a practical context that if you jump off a roof, you will always fall because of gravity. Another thing is entropy, without which, there is nothing to say that the ground cannot spontaneously acquire enough potential energy and then push you off the ground. Entropy and time are intimately linked. In orde to reverse time, according to the theories, entropy of the universe would have to decrease, and this is not the case, entropy of the universe always apparently increases, that's a law, and increasing entropy is what guides time to move forward, we percieve this through our senses, and give it a name, "time", and it can be on any arbitrary scale we so choose, etc... Also, some theories out there quantize space and time like quantum electrodynamics, meaning that, there is a fundamental unit of space and time that cannot be divided any further, a quanta, instead of continuously being divided ad infinitum. you cannot reverse whats not there... can you reverse an inch or a gallon? no, they are figments of our perception... meaning there is no substance to qualify as something... so to say time can be stopped, reversed or slowed down is just science fiction... |
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Edited by
Frost379
on
Mon 07/22/13 06:28 PM
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people are talking about nothing, but what you are forgetting is that time is nothing, just a perception we created to make the day go by and created a standard along the way... so to ask if "time" was around before the big bang is a senseless question... time has never existed but in our minds.. The current understanding is that time is is not invariant, ie, it is not its own independent variable or constant. Time is variable and is interlinked with all the physical concepts of space, mass, energy, etc..., Hence space-time. All the other concepts including time are themselves still mental constructs, they exist within our mind like you say, so does every other concept. If it exists in our mind, does it then exist? Who knows, but what I know, and possibly not even this, is that I know nothing for certain. Your "time before the Big Bang argument" is akin to asking yourself, "if a tree falls in the forest, and there is no one around, does it make a sound?" If someone were living in a black hole, relative to an observer outside, time would have stopped, relative to the observer in the black hole, time is going on as usual, but he would observe the persons outside as having infinite time, in the limiting case mind you. It's all up to relativity and GR to help shed some light on this. Even though their model is most likely incorrect, as its a human made model, it does keep GPS accurate, since without the Lorentz transformations and other complicated relativistic calculations, GPS would be useless. I like to split things down into what is practical, and what is theoretical. For instance, the law of gravity is most likely incorrect as well, and there is a chance you jump off a roof and float, though this chance is negligible for practical purposes. So I can say in a practical context that if you jump off a roof, you will always fall because of gravity. Another thing is entropy, without which, there is nothing to say that the ground cannot spontaneously acquire enough potential energy and then push you off the ground. Entropy and time are intimately linked. In orde to reverse time, according to the theories, entropy of the universe would have to decrease, and this is not the case, entropy of the universe always apparently increases, that's a law, and increasing entropy is what guides time to move forward, we percieve this through our senses, and give it a name, "time", and it can be on any arbitrary scale we so choose, etc... Also, some theories out there quantize space and time like quantum electrodynamics, meaning that, there is a fundamental unit of space and time that cannot be divided any further, a quanta, instead of continuously being divided ad infinitum. you cannot reverse whats not there... can you reverse an inch or a gallon? no, they are figments of our perception... meaning there is no substance to qualify as something... so to say time can be stopped, reversed or slowed down is just science fiction... Care to elaborate? Everything we percieve are figments of our imagination, whatever that is, and what about consciousness? If you reject time as being something because it is a figment if our imagination, you have to reject every other concept, like consciousness, meaning everything we think we know, percieve, etc, is in fact nothingness. You are saying there is no such thing as anything, nothing exists, etc... I think you are trying to make a point of discerning between the tangible and the intangible, or the ideas, concepts, words, we give to that which we perceive. What to you constitutes something, substance, etc... If any? |
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people are talking about nothing, but what you are forgetting is that time is nothing, just a perception we created to make the day go by and created a standard along the way... so to ask if "time" was around before the big bang is a senseless question... time has never existed but in our minds.. The current understanding is that time is is not invariant, ie, it is not its own independent variable or constant. Time is variable and is interlinked with all the physical concepts of space, mass, energy, etc..., Hence space-time. All the other concepts including time are themselves still mental constructs, they exist within our mind like you say, so does every other concept. If it exists in our mind, does it then exist? Who knows, but what I know, and possibly not even this, is that I know nothing for certain. Your "time before the Big Bang argument" is akin to asking yourself, "if a tree falls in the forest, and there is no one around, does it make a sound?" If someone were living in a black hole, relative to an observer outside, time would have stopped, relative to the observer in the black hole, time is going on as usual, but he would observe the persons outside as having infinite time, in the limiting case mind you. It's all up to relativity and GR to help shed some light on this. Even though their model is most likely incorrect, as its a human made model, it does keep GPS accurate, since without the Lorentz transformations and other complicated relativistic calculations, GPS would be useless. I like to split things down into what is practical, and what is theoretical. For instance, the law of gravity is most likely incorrect as well, and there is a chance you jump off a roof and float, though this chance is negligible for practical purposes. So I can say in a practical context that if you jump off a roof, you will always fall because of gravity. Another thing is entropy, without which, there is nothing to say that the ground cannot spontaneously acquire enough potential energy and then push you off the ground. Entropy and time are intimately linked. In orde to reverse time, according to the theories, entropy of the universe would have to decrease, and this is not the case, entropy of the universe always apparently increases, that's a law, and increasing entropy is what guides time to move forward, we percieve this through our senses, and give it a name, "time", and it can be on any arbitrary scale we so choose, etc... Also, some theories out there quantize space and time like quantum electrodynamics, meaning that, there is a fundamental unit of space and time that cannot be divided any further, a quanta, instead of continuously being divided ad infinitum. you cannot reverse whats not there... can you reverse an inch or a gallon? no, they are figments of our perception... meaning there is no substance to qualify as something... so to say time can be stopped, reversed or slowed down is just science fiction... Care to elaborate? Everything we percieve are figments of our imagination, whatever that is, and what about consciousness? If you reject time as being something because it is a figment if our imagination, you have to reject every other concept, like consciousness, meaning everything we think we know, percieve, etc, is in fact nothingness. You are saying there is no such thing as anything, nothing exists, etc... thats kinda my point.. most things we can study, because they have a substance to it, no matter how our minds perceive it. time has no substance, no structure, no atoms or molecules, not even sub-atomic particles... so how can something that only exists in our minds change the reality we know? |
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Consciousness is everything.
Time does not move forward or backward. Entropy or cause and effect is what causes what we experience as change or movement, and it moves in a single direction....what we call forward. That is why time appears to move forward. You can drop a vase and break it into a lot of pieces, but you cannot revers time so that the vase will reassemble. What is done is done. You cannot unspeak a word, or unbreak a heart. There is only the present moment. |
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so how can something that only exists in our minds change the reality we know? Reality is what we perceive. Perception is reality. That is what reality is. PERCEPTIONS. The mind does not do the perceiving, consciousness does. |
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so how can something that only exists in our minds change the reality we know? Reality is what we perceive. Perception is reality. That is what reality is. PERCEPTIONS. The mind does not do the perceiving, consciousness does. so if you don't perceive the car your walking in front of, it won't hit you? i think the reality will win... |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Mon 07/22/13 07:23 PM
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so how can something that only exists in our minds change the reality we know? Reality is what we perceive. Perception is reality. That is what reality is. PERCEPTIONS. The mind does not do the perceiving, consciousness does. so if you don't perceive the car your walking in front of, it won't hit you? i think the reality will win... You certainly will perceive it when it hits you. And so will anyone watching. And so will the people who have to clean up the mess. But the truth is, if no body at all perceives it then it didn't happen did it? I know these concepts go a little over your head. |
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In order for reality to exist, there has to be an observer.
The observer is consciousness. Consciousness is manifesting in this thing we call reality. Consciousness sees with many eyes. Yours, mine, the dog, the cat, the birds in the sky.... They are all connected to this consciousness. |
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Edited by
Frost379
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Mon 07/22/13 08:17 PM
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Time is a process, emerging from entropy. Entropy itself involves particles in disorder or order, we percieve this entropy, the many particles tending to disorder, as time moving forward, so I would say that time does exist, as much as particles do, it is just an all encompassing term, generalizing phenomena that have substance, it combines things that do exist, whatever existing means. Consciousness is everything, and we hardly know anything about it. The science that tries to understand cognition and develop theories about consciousness is cognitive science, among others. Consciousness may be an emergent property from all the chemical manipulation and organized neurons in our head, or it may be on a different physical plane, whatever it is, I will just call it reality. For us to be conscious, we need to percieve, and many species and people percieve in different ways through our limited senses. What reality is, is really what we sense, relative anyways. Now, there may be an objective reality, In which I think mightymoe believes in, a reality which exists without us. Or there may be a holographic or virtual type reality, in which everything exists solely in our mind, etc... Who knows, but you guys are talking about purely different things. I myself tend towards believing in an objective reality. For example, if someone gets hit by a car, and nobody perceives it, it could have happened, imagine everyone around is on acid, they percieve differently, still, the dude gets hit by a car, but he perceives it as a cloud or something, lol. Maybe after everyone is off acid, they will percieve differently, and then they can conclude that it is indeed a car that hit the guy and not a cloud, then they can verify this by viewing footage from a camera on a street corner. Instead of using your own senses, you have recorded something, you have probed reality with a tool, which is what scientists do all the time to conclude about things in which we cannot sense but in which instruments can and convert that information into something we can sense. Still, there has to be an observer for all this to matter, and some people like to think about the concept of a collective consciousness, a god, etc... To try and resolve this issue.
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Time is a process, emerging from entropy. Entropy itself involves particles in disorder or order, we percieve this entropy, the many particles tending to disorder, as time moving forward, so I would say that time does exist, as much as particles do, it is just an all encompassing term, generalizing phenomena that have substance, it combines things that do exist, whatever existing means. Consciousness is everything, and we hardly know anything about it. The science that tries to understand cognition and develop theories about consciousness is cognitive science, among others. Consciousness may be an emergent property from all the chemical manipulation and organized neurons in our head, or it may be on a different physical plane, whatever it is, I will just call it reality. For us to be conscious, we need to percieve, and many species and people percieve in different ways through our limited senses. What reality is, is really what we sense, relative anyways. Now, there may be an objective reality, In which I think mightymoe believes in, a reality which exists without us. Or there may be a holographic or virtual type reality, in which everything exists solely in our mind, etc... Who knows, but you guys are talking about purely different things. I myself tend towards believing in an objective reality. For example, if someone gets hit by a car, and nobody perceives it, it could have happened, imagine everyone around is on acid, they percieve differently, still, the dude gets hit by a car, but he perceives it as a cloud or something, lol. Maybe after everyone is off acid, they will percieve differently, and then they can conclude that it is indeed a car that hit the guy and not a cloud, then they can verify this by viewing footage from a camera on a street corner. Instead of using your own senses, you have recorded something, you have probed reality with a tool, which is what scientists do all the time to conclude about things in which we cannot sense but in which instruments can and convert that information into something we can sense. Still, there has to be an observer for all this to matter, and some people like to think about the concept of a collective consciousness, a god, etc... To try and resolve this issue. I do wish that you would learn to use paragraphs. Anyway, as I have said previously, time is a metric, a measurement. We define a year as one complete trip around the Sun by the Earth. We define a day as one complete rotation of the Earth on its axis. We define a light-year as the distance that light travels while the Earth makes a complete trip around the Sun. |
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Edited by
Frost379
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Mon 07/22/13 10:20 PM
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Time is a process, emerging from entropy. Entropy itself involves particles in disorder or order, we percieve this entropy, the many particles tending to disorder, as time moving forward, so I would say that time does exist, as much as particles do, it is just an all encompassing term, generalizing phenomena that have substance, it combines things that do exist, whatever existing means. Consciousness is everything, and we hardly know anything about it. The science that tries to understand cognition and develop theories about consciousness is cognitive science, among others. Consciousness may be an emergent property from all the chemical manipulation and organized neurons in our head, or it may be on a different physical plane, whatever it is, I will just call it reality. For us to be conscious, we need to percieve, and many species and people percieve in different ways through our limited senses. What reality is, is really what we sense, relative anyways. Now, there may be an objective reality, In which I think mightymoe believes in, a reality which exists without us. Or there may be a holographic or virtual type reality, in which everything exists solely in our mind, etc... Who knows, but you guys are talking about purely different things. I myself tend towards believing in an objective reality. For example, if someone gets hit by a car, and nobody perceives it, it could have happened, imagine everyone around is on acid, they percieve differently, still, the dude gets hit by a car, but he perceives it as a cloud or something, lol. Maybe after everyone is off acid, they will percieve differently, and then they can conclude that it is indeed a car that hit the guy and not a cloud, then they can verify this by viewing footage from a camera on a street corner. Instead of using your own senses, you have recorded something, you have probed reality with a tool, which is what scientists do all the time to conclude about things in which we cannot sense but in which instruments can and convert that information into something we can sense. Still, there has to be an observer for all this to matter, and some people like to think about the concept of a collective consciousness, a god, etc... To try and resolve this issue. I do wish that you would learn to use paragraphs. Anyway, as I have said previously, time is a metric, a measurement. We define a year as one complete trip around the Sun by the Earth. We define a day as one complete rotation of the Earth on its axis. We define a light-year as the distance that light travels while the Earth makes a complete trip around the Sun. If you want, you can define time as a metric, a measure, and in that sense, it is just a mental construct, intangible, etc. But you can also define time in different ways, and the purest form is the concept, it transcends your definition of a metric or measure, and to some people, it is much more than what you have limited it to be in your narrow yet technical definition. It depends on the context In which you are talking about, say between a physics technical definition, and a philosophers many definitions. A couple examples that I have mentioned in which definitions of time can be constructed differently are with the concepts of entropy, and space-time. The latter concept of space-time is even more interesting as it suggests that time, what is associated as intangible, is interlinked with space and mass, which is usually associated as tangible. |
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so how can something that only exists in our minds change the reality we know? Reality is what we perceive. Perception is reality. That is what reality is. PERCEPTIONS. The mind does not do the perceiving, consciousness does. so if you don't perceive the car your walking in front of, it won't hit you? i think the reality will win... You certainly will perceive it when it hits you. And so will anyone watching. And so will the people who have to clean up the mess. But the truth is, if no body at all perceives it then it didn't happen did it? I know these concepts go a little over your head. maybe you can "dumb it down" enough where i can grasp this... i doubt it tho... your confusing a shared reality with peoples personal reality... your right as far as a personal reality goes, but the shared reality has the bigger trump... |
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Time is a process, emerging from entropy. Entropy itself involves particles in disorder or order, we percieve this entropy, the many particles tending to disorder, as time moving forward, so I would say that time does exist, as much as particles do, it is just an all encompassing term, generalizing phenomena that have substance, it combines things that do exist, whatever existing means. Consciousness is everything, and we hardly know anything about it. The science that tries to understand cognition and develop theories about consciousness is cognitive science, among others. Consciousness may be an emergent property from all the chemical manipulation and organized neurons in our head, or it may be on a different physical plane, whatever it is, I will just call it reality. For us to be conscious, we need to percieve, and many species and people percieve in different ways through our limited senses. What reality is, is really what we sense, relative anyways. Now, there may be an objective reality, In which I think mightymoe believes in, a reality which exists without us. Or there may be a holographic or virtual type reality, in which everything exists solely in our mind, etc... Who knows, but you guys are talking about purely different things. I myself tend towards believing in an objective reality. For example, if someone gets hit by a car, and nobody perceives it, it could have happened, imagine everyone around is on acid, they percieve differently, still, the dude gets hit by a car, but he perceives it as a cloud or something, lol. Maybe after everyone is off acid, they will percieve differently, and then they can conclude that it is indeed a car that hit the guy and not a cloud, then they can verify this by viewing footage from a camera on a street corner. Instead of using your own senses, you have recorded something, you have probed reality with a tool, which is what scientists do all the time to conclude about things in which we cannot sense but in which instruments can and convert that information into something we can sense. Still, there has to be an observer for all this to matter, and some people like to think about the concept of a collective consciousness, a god, etc... To try and resolve this issue. I do wish that you would learn to use paragraphs. Anyway, as I have said previously, time is a metric, a measurement. We define a year as one complete trip around the Sun by the Earth. We define a day as one complete rotation of the Earth on its axis. We define a light-year as the distance that light travels while the Earth makes a complete trip around the Sun. wrong... a light year is defined as to how far light travels in the time it takes the earth to go around the sun ... |
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Consciousness is time. If the universe had zero consciousness there would not be anything to experience any moment. The Universe would not exist in the form we see it, without consciousness to experience anything the Universe would exist as a singularity, undivided, because there is nothing to experience its parts. it would become all space and time in a single entity.
I believe the Universe does exist right now as a singularity relative to no consciousness. But since we are conscious beings in a Universe full of consciousness we will experience the vacuum that separates and divides the singularity into the fractal structure we see right now. |
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Consciousness is time. If the universe had zero consciousness there would not be anything to experience any moment. The Universe would not exist in the form we see it, without consciousness to experience anything the Universe would exist as a singularity, undivided, because there is nothing to experience its parts. it would become all space and time in a single entity. I believe the Universe does exist right now as a singularity relative to no consciousness. But since we are conscious beings in a Universe full of consciousness we will experience the vacuum that separates and divides the singularity into the fractal structure we see right now. not sure what that means, but consciousness isn't time, it's an understanding that perceives reality... doesn't create it, but perceives it... |
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Consciousness is time. If the universe had zero consciousness there would not be anything to experience any moment. The Universe would not exist in the form we see it, without consciousness to experience anything the Universe would exist as a singularity, undivided, because there is nothing to experience its parts. it would become all space and time in a single entity. I believe the Universe does exist right now as a singularity relative to no consciousness. But since we are conscious beings in a Universe full of consciousness we will experience the vacuum that separates and divides the singularity into the fractal structure we see right now. not sure what that means, but consciousness isn't time, it's an understanding that perceives reality... doesn't create it, but perceives it... First you say time only exists in the mind, then you say consciousness is not time. So if time does not exist as a conscious observation in the mind how is it that time exists in the mind? That's a little contradicting. When I say time is consciousness I mean exactly that, time doesn't exist, it is in the mind. It is conscious observation. You see things move, you calculate how long it takes something to get from point a to point b, Time is movement through space observed by the conscious mind. |
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Consciousness is time. If the universe had zero consciousness there would not be anything to experience any moment. The Universe would not exist in the form we see it, without consciousness to experience anything the Universe would exist as a singularity, undivided, because there is nothing to experience its parts. it would become all space and time in a single entity. I believe the Universe does exist right now as a singularity relative to no consciousness. But since we are conscious beings in a Universe full of consciousness we will experience the vacuum that separates and divides the singularity into the fractal structure we see right now. not sure what that means, but consciousness isn't time, it's an understanding that perceives reality... doesn't create it, but perceives it... First you say time only exists in the mind, then you say consciousness is not time. So if time does not exist as a conscious observation in the mind how is it that time exists in the mind? That's a little contradicting. When I say time is consciousness I mean exactly that, time doesn't exist, it is in the mind. It is conscious observation. You see things move, you calculate how long it takes something to get from point a to point b, Time is movement through space observed by the conscious mind. i don't see it as contradicting, it's two separate things you are talking about... i'll give you this, time might be a part of consciousness, but both are separate from each other... we invented time to have a better understanding, to make equations work, same as with an inch or a mile. anyway, my whole point to this is that time cannot be bent, slowed down, go backwards, or anything else like that, because it is a figment of our perception... |
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