I posted these because< oops

"This despite a U.N. report released this year which stated that an aging population and downward spiraling birthrates will result in a labor deficit that will call for an influx of 35 million adult immigrants by the year 2025 to stabilize labor and economic conditions.

Right now, today, most of Western Europe is suffering from a lack of labor for low-paying jobs, as well as a gap in the technology pool. Foreigners can help fill these slots. Unless Europeans start having a lot more babies, right now, experts find it difficult to imagine how the need for immigration might diminish."

Hmm, sounds familiar...seems I've heard that spouted as a reason for the need of illegal immigrants in the U.S.

Lets see, estimated 12-20 million illegals in U.S., probably double that would be closer. I've read that since Roe vs Wade
over 50 million babies have been aborted in the U.S.
Something doesn't make since to me.

Fanta: re: "Europe is full of injustices like these, that are equal to or far surpass anything here."

I understand that you wanted to make the point that this problem is not just a problem here but that it is just as troublesome in other regions.

But to me this is kind of a "So what?" point. Because others do wrong also does not make something right.

I do believe this is a great country. That does not mean it is perfect. We can do better.

Fanta:

Unless you meant that other countrys have also been unable to solve this problem, and therefore, it is an extremely complex, perhaps insolvable problem?

Which did you mean? Or was it both?

No I meant so what hypocrits!!!!

You know solve your own problems before critizeing us!

Gosh.... you could have just said that....

Anyway they're just jealous... we have better and/or cheaper food, gas, clothes, music... etc.

Oh wait that's partly because we have all that cheap labor from our illegals isn't it?



I still think we can do better though...

I thought you read my posts!

Im for sending the Immigration and Naturalization Authorities to these rallies (protests), flea markets, and construction sites, rounding them up and putting them on every available school bus to ship their asses back!
Regardless of the cost!

Young, old, blind, crippled, and crazy. If the childrens parents are both illegal then the child is too, regardless of where they are born!
If one parent is an American then the parents can decide who they live with!

Fingerprint them first and if they are caught here again prosecute them.

Fine the employers that hire them $50,000 for each illegal (first offense) then $100,000 each for the second offense!
Same for people who rent to them!

Some people would call me satan incarnate, but all people would say illegal immigration problem SOLVED!!!

Ouch! Easy on the employers there guy.

Some of those illegals can be very clever at concealing their status. Besides that if you have a hundred acres of ripe squash and can not hire someone in a suit ant tie to pick them you will be doing anything you can to save your crop.

American boys would rather be waiters in a restaurant than drive a nail or shovel concrete or pick fruit.

If you crush business, business goes away.

damn will you guys make up your minds!!!

We already allow for migrant workers. It is based on a poll from employers in the Agriculture Industries.
Construction workers, their are plenty Americans that were layed off, with families, who loved their jobs!
They were layed off for cheaper labor with no concern for the men or their families!
Ive seen it too many times!
I live in one of the largest agriculture regions in this country! We used to, and still do have migrant workers that are here legally and seasonally!
We also have one of, if not the strongest housing markets in the country! 90% of these builders and developers now employ all Mexican crews, llegal immigrants and they know it!
They didnt hire them, because they couldnt find people to fill the jobs. The jobs were already filled. They hired them because they are cheap labor! They gave the americans a choice of a pay cut down to 7 and 8 dollars an hour or they were fired. Its that simple and blatant!
I was a Lead Carpenter, I had skilled, good employees that worked under me, so I know what Im talking about!

If you operate with a bleeding heart, and start making exceptions the problem will continue!

Sometimes tough decisions have to be made, and adjust to the consequences later!

Re: "rounding them up and putting them on every available school bus to ship their asses back!
Regardless of the cost!"

Yes Fanta, I knew you thought that from your many posts. I don't agree for many reasons from compassionate to historic to economic- as I've said before...

And there was always the chance that you woke up this morning and thought, "Gosh, that's right, I'm not a 100% Native American either so *maybe* I should re-think my immigration policy opinions..."

I just wanted to clarify the exact sub-point, re your many Euro examples, that you were pursuing *today*.

Nope, wrong we conquered and settled a wild country. We made America. We shivered and went hungry in the cold. We carved towns from wilderness, built schools, grew crops, built highways. and fought wars! America as it is today was earned the hard way, by blood, sweat, and tears!
My family came here around 1500! My family helped frame the Declaration of Independence, write the Constitution, and route the British out of the country.
We have fought in every war this country has ever had, helped to settle Texas, and fought the Mexicans to get it!!
I am as American as it comes by god, and I dont plan on sitting around while a bunch of illegal immigrants take what we built!!
They should stay at home and change their country, or come here legally. Millions do you know, have since before the civil war (come here legally), and I dont have a problem with that. They are welcome, let them come(Legally)!

Philosopher writes:

" Ouch! Easy on the employers there guy.

Some of those illegals can be very clever at concealing their status. Besides that if you have a hundred acres of ripe squash and can not hire someone in a suit ant tie to pick them you will be doing anything you can to save your crop.

American boys would rather be waiters in a restaurant than drive a nail or shovel concrete or pick fruit.

If you crush business, business goes away."


It seemed to have had no problem surviving before the current epidemic of illegal immigration. Besides, when an employer pays an illegal under the table, he can hardly complain that he was being tricked.

-Kerry O.

Rock on Kerry-o,
Besides they already and have for years surveyed the Agriculture industry and the seafood industry. This is how they determine the temp work visas passed out every year!
Thes people are here legally, and we know who they are and where they are. They arent criminals either here or in their homeland!

Employers are motivated to not pay under the table, because that implies paying cash. If you pay cash then it has to come from somewhere, presumable your own personal income. The tax ramifications of that are ominous. Imagine for example paying 100 workers under the table. To do that your own personal income would have to be the equivalent of the 100 workers combined, plus your own income. Still I guess it happens some.

I think most of the time though they let the guys get paid from company accounts with a regular check and the tax collected is paid into the account of whatever ssn was given by the employee. I am guessing that except for a few short term jobs of moving furniture or mowing grass most illegals have to provide some ssn info and such.

Its called a 1099, Phil??

They put them down as sub-contractors responsible for 100% of their own taxes. To be filed quarterly or annually!
They seldom moniter who pays and who doesnt!
My brother has done this for 30 years and a little bird tells me, he has never paid a dime in income tax.
I know many that do this, but they cant own property or have saving accounts without the risk of being caught!
I know a few who have been caught as well, but when they are the IRS only goes back 5 years on their audit. Even then they hardly waste time with collecting by force.

When you pay someone by 1099 you have to submit a 1096 to the gov't showing who was paid and how much, ssn is a required entry on the form.

Yep, but many builders and contractors either make one up for the illegals or ask. They, and I dont mean to imply all, dont even look to see if you have a SS card!
And the IRS rarely enforces anything unless they make grand amounts of money!
Plus if you use the same name and SSN you could pay the tax, esp. if it belongs to one of your American born children, and has been doctored like the cop recently arrested in Milwaukee!
Unfortunately the IRS hardly ever checks!
The Employers know these people are illegal and dont care. Its not that they dont know, when 10 drive uo to the job site in a Ford escort and maybe, maybe 1 speaks any English!
They know, they just dont care, and the Mexicans wont complain about anything for fear of being deported. This allows the employers to abuse their rights and work them at jobs that traditionally paid 12 and 15 dollars an hour for 7 dollars!

You have a very devious mind.

For farmers, having migrant workers often means the difference between harvesting their crops or letting them go to waste in the field. The price they pay the workers is the migrant worker price. Its not 7 dollars an hour just because they are migrant workers. College students and video gamers can work in the fields for the same price. I'm sure the farmers would be just fine with that.

For the farmers it would be a big challenge to get the home boys out there picking fruit, whether they pay 7 or 15 dollars an hour. If they step up to 20 or 25 an hour things would be easier for them. At that point they begin to have another problem. Imported food gets to be cheaper than the goods they can produce. If you want to do to the agricultural sector what has been done to the manufacturing sector, keep the pressure up.

Agricultural workers are important to farmers, but that argument has been made and largely accepted. When you consider manufacturing jobs, there is already crushing competition for any product sales that can be produced abroad.

In the construction industry there are a lot of illegals as well. It has been this way for years. As for now, if you want someone with experience in construction you better be willing to hire Hispanics. Some are illegal, some are not, and it is not always easy to tell the difference. But whether you can tell or not it might be to your advantage to hire whoever will work. If you are running a business you have to have workers, preferable workers with experience.

When they had the last amnesty program, 20 years back or so, they put in place heavy penalties and fines for hiring illegals, then they largely ignored the penalties from that point on except for some few high profile cases. Now after so many years people suddenly want to turn back the tide. Some employers have been hiring illegals for 20 years now. Imagine the barrier to entry into a business when you have to compete with that, and yet you are told that if you hire illegals the government will crush you. The employers who break the laws have the advantage in cost and hiring of experienced workers. The effect is to bar new entry into the market. But for the company who had illegal employees for so many years, taking away their labor force has the effect of stopping their business activity.

The popular view to get rid of the illegals by targeting businesses who hire them will hurt your neighbors and your local economy.