'philosopher',

With all due respect, I wish I could debate with you, or defend some of the ideas which I put forth earlier, as a reply to yours, but you have sooooo misunderstood my post IMO, that trying to clarify the misinterpretations would be in vain.

Reversing just about everything you wrote, might provide a clearer picture of the intent of my message.

Let me try and re-present it succinctly :

Essentially, I wrote that declaring oneself as a moderate,

... and yet suggesting the need to install 'moderate' governments of choice' in other parts of the world, to ensure compliance with self-serving interests,
... representes a serious dialectic flaw.

Moderates do not get involved in planning or perpetrating covert military and guerilla action in other countries.

Now I don't have a problem with the notion of discussing the reality of unstable geo-political zones, and the importance to deal pragmatically and defensively with that reality.

BUT!!!

Geo-political 'red zones', and Covert Commando and Guerilla Operations, simply do not enter the universe of the 'middle-of-the-road' moderate. These are radical and extreme notions and measures by any standards, and they require a different profile than that of a moderate.

For a 'moderate' to suggest such action as 'moderate', is simply oxymoronic.

I also said about that confused state of 'genres' :

"... The ones whom confuse their 'unconscious extreme views' for moderation, and confuse further the legitimate correlate reaction of others as extreme, ... that 'kind of 'middle-of-the road' (moderate in their mind) delusional characters, base their convictions solely on self intererest, and are as far from ethical and 'moderate' conduct as can be..."

Fascists always consider their convictions as moderate, justified and reasonable. They never question it.

i saw fanta.
and that pisses me off the most, but as i said let us see

i saw fanta.
and that pisses me off the most, but as i said let us see

"Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice" so said Lyndon Johnson at one time. Rather a Machiavellian perspective I think. Personally I have some problems with this sort of behavior too.

I'm not interested in promoting guerrilla activities to promote our personal agenda as a country. I am going to make the observation though that many times other countries do take such action. Iran's Revolutionary Guard was just declared to be a terrorist group, and labeled as extremist. So apparently I'm not the only one with the opinion that other countries are complicit in such activities.

I am interested in promoting action to prevent or deter such activities by others, particularly extremists, when necessary to help the moderates of the region where such trouble is occurring to maintain some semblance of balance and authority.

As to how to grade or qualify groups as extremist or moderate, I suppose that is rather subjective. I'm not in the loop. Better to ask others.

I see your point Voil regarding extremist action by moderates still being extreme. A rose by any other name...

I still have not had a chance to review the references mentioned by Redy early in the thread, but I thought they looked interesting. If I can only get a little more time I'd like to have a look.

Now we are getting into the extreme of it all.....

Who defines extremist and what exactly constitutes extreme.
Is an extremist in his own right qualified to define extremist? If so then doesn't that blur the edges a little as to the definition?

If the Iranian Revolutionary Guard is an extremist entity, would that not mean George Washington, the writers of the constitution, and the minutemen were also an extremist entity?
What about Delta Force and the Green Berets, do they not qualify as well?

By consensus of the participants in this thread, we have already determined that George Bush and the neo-cons in his administration are extremist. Now does Bush, Rice, and the rest of these extremist qualify to define the term extremist?

I say no, if so where exactly do we draw the line? Do we let every extreme entity designate an extremist and make it so? Do we keep a book so that when these existing extremist leave power we do not forget, or do we write them down in pencil to be erased later?

Next we should discuss who is qualified to call a terrorist a terrorist! Or is a terrorist an extremist, or an extremist a terrorist!

OK, OK, I knew this was going to get complicated. I should have just let Bush tell me what I need to know, close my eyes, and believe blindly in everything he says!

Damn, wheres my indoctrination manual????

In regard to Iran I was watching cnn and as i do sometimes emailed them. I believe it implies my views on the subject... Miles

hardball@msnbc.com

Subject: Iran

Thanks for saying it the way it is. You are about the only news i will watch. The segment on keeping war with Iran on the Table. The guy who says we should always because they are terrorists ( i believe he said). Does this not make us Terrorists to the Iranian People? We say Bin Laden is the Mastermind of 911 and we want him no matter what the cost. Then why when Iran's President comes to the UN meetings in New York don't we arrest him? Isn't he the mastermind of Evil to this Adminastration? Why hold the people hostage? No wonder people hate us we are HIPPOCRITES!!!!! I will be glad when this adminastration is gone. Personally almost all of congress i wish would be defeated as they do only what they believe will win them votes. Not what is best. Thay talk all the time about which person is wishy washy when they all are. Please keep the PRESSURE on. Good Job.. Miles......... Missouri

Good job Miles.......

Fanta My friend You state "By consensus of the participants in this thread, we have already determined that George Bush and the neo-cons in his administration are extremist. Now does Bush, Rice, and the rest of these extremist qualify to define the term extremist"
So I guess only those that are here is thread should determine who is or not an extremist and let the majority of Americans who voted for Bush..not once but twice sit back while you experts decide
Miles you will never learn anything from the Clinton News Network(CNN )

As one of the majority (barely) that voted him into office, and now one of the majotity (by 40%) who realize they were lied to in an extreme manner now, even without considering the worlds opinion, I would have to answer no! We should let Webster define the word and let common sense dictate who and where to apply it!!

Yes Fanta agreed..but "common sense" is not very common around here anymore

Damn sure not anywhere in the Bush Administration!!!

Yes and I suppose the inept and disfucntional congress with an approval rating 1/3 of the presidents) has the answers

I never hear them try to define extremist to a particular entity, and I think they are as shocked and concerned with Bush's frequent use as the rest of the world. As a whole that is, of course the majority of Republicans show an extreme blind loyaly to their daddy bush. They are an organization bent on a common goal with no regards to the American publics wishes.

I have never in my life or in my study of history ever heard the word terrorist used as often as it has been since Bush took office!

The Republican Party right now are a bunch of clones. I have no trust in any of them. They are evil and bent on a common goal. I think one is the same as the rest, Puppet heads controlled by a more powerful force than theirselves.

Ron Paul should be glad he has no chance of winning. I am sure, if some how he were able to pull it off he would be assasinated shortly there after.

How's that for extreme!!!

Serchin4MyRedWine

Shalom

Never heard that before ( Clinton's News Network) haha.. Clintons years look pretty good to me now. Nafta was his biggest mistake. King David in this world would be shunned. Not that i am comparing Clinton in the least bit.. The religious right puts on thier blinders and if a candidate speaks what they want to hear they will elect/relect satan himself. Don't ya know. It is sad that those same people because Billy Graham in his last public speaking address had Bill and Hillary on the podium with him, he now has a bad check mark next to his name. I do not know about u? But me/I and most all my middle class friends enjoyed prosperity during Clinton's 8 years.Now we put taxes on cigeretts, gas and now they are wanting to bottled waater. Never mind asking the people what they want. But china who in the past we said we would not do business with as long as they held thier people down. yes Clinton may have opened the door but the bu****es have flocked to it. We have got rid of most of the tariffs on imports and sent thousands of 50 to 70 thousand dollar a year jobs where ever we can make the most for the share holder. Well the middle class, well they need to wake up and take those jobs that our illegal immagrants will take, right? Forget about a working class wage. The upper class they deserve more, they deserve million dollar bonusses they closed down Flint michigan (almost I think) No Clinton was no saint but he was not bent on war.. Oh yea he could of taken bin laden out after the USS coal. Darn him. oh Condy she likes to change her story about the plan for bin laden from the Clinton clan. But she has a very good teacher. If you tell a lie long enough they will eventually believe it, never give in.. Oh what a sin that would be. Anyway we will believe the lie ourselves if we do not back down. Bring me a beer I need a break just don't shoot me Richard..haha Got them by thier gonads Richard. It's good to be the king. Oh congress they are such wussies my Daddy i bet is proud of me. What do ya think. yea your the best GW my wallet can not hold all this hard earned cash. You are the greatest george.. haha yae I know... Can't wait to get back to Texas. Don't mess with Texas GW. Thats right Don't mess with Texas... We can make some really good oil deals with all our friends when we get out. whhooo weeeee bring out the wheel barrows rich I mean Rick sorry,opps.. we are going to need them whooo wee. this is a great country when good ole folk like us can make it huh.. Who you callen old. Settle down put that gun away Rick we're on the same side. How many people should we pardon when we leave. Oh golly George I don't have that many fingers. Shucks wild man my friends do.. haha Yea George I love yaa... wait GW i didn't mean it that away. Well your lucky you wasn't my last deer. What ya mean George? Live From New York It's Saturday Night live.... Ah Serchin4MyRedWine your name sake makes me laugh..Have a beer everyone it's on me..hahaha I said enough.. miles

Fanta..do you think quite possibly the reason for the heavy use of the term "terrorist" has anything at all to do with the Cole bombing, 911?? Just as "Commies" were in the 50's and 60's in Korean War, Cold War and Vietnam? ..No... it is all Bushes doing I know

Well Miles you have short memory if Clinton looks good..

Thank Clinton for the 73 House and Senate
witnesses who have pled the 5th Amendment and 17
witnesses who have fled the country to avoid
testifying about Democratic campaign fund raising.

Thank Clinton, for the 19 charges, 8
convictions, and 4 imprisonments from the Whitewater
"mess" and the 55 criminal charges and 32 criminal
convictions (so far) in the other "Clinton"
scandals.

,
thank Clinton for the 140 pardons of convicted felons and
indicted felons-in-exile. We will love to have them
rejoin society.

The last and most important point - thank
you for forcing Israel to let Mohammed Atta go free.
Terrorist pilot Mohammed Atta blew up a bus in
Israel in 1986. The Israelis captured, tried and
imprisoned him. As part of the Oslo agreement with
the Palestinians in 1993, Israel had to agree to
release so-called "political prisoners".

However, the Israelis would not release any
with blood on their hands. The American President at
the time, Bill Clinton, and his Secretary of State,
Warren Christopher, "insisted" that all prisoners be released. Thus Mohammed Atta was freed and
eventually thanked the US by flying an airplane into
Tower One of the World Trade Center . .

So if that is your Good President....tells about what kind of society you want

Is that all. He is ready for Sainthood.. Mother Teresa move over. Wow with Bush in power how many american service men can count as casualties to a illegal war. How many Iraqies have died
for a favorite son who refuses to tell the truth and refuses to admitt anything but how great he is. Wow and his family tree where does it lead back too. Oh have u forgot the speech before congress. " we will not differinciate between a terrorists and a country who harbors them' Wow what a double standard again. israel who lives with terrorism all the time has terrorists kill and kiddnap thier troops and what does the Us of A do? Bush sends condy over to tell Israel to back off. Wow how fair do we treat our allies if it does not benefit this administration. It really did but they did not want the backlash did they? Or lets see remember Ricks trip to meet the Saudi king in Nov 25th. How timely thankgiving lets give to the less fortunate. Well The Washington post reported the kings pressman said Rick was threatened. How? We were not doing a good job protecting the sunni's Saudi's cousins of sort. So what was Richard told? Get Iraq under control or leave now. Wow what was Saudi's plans?

1. To cut the price of oil to at least 1/2 it's current price to cripple Iran's ability to retaliate when Saudi Invaded Iraq and Protected the Sunni's.

2 Send our troops home. wow what a deal!!!!!

3 We were talking Iran (Evil Monster again boogie man needs to be stopped) has nuclear program. Outcome of #1&2 Nuke program stopped.. Wow another Hooray



But of cource later the story was retracted as a lie. What about the kings pressman? Wow what would happen to someone lying about something like this about Saudi's King? No not a Head chopping session no he was just fired. What a repreave wouldn't ya say?

Now who was the Pressmans boss lets see.... Could it be the Saudi Ambassador to the good ole U. S. and A.. Right good answer. What happened to him? Well lets Sea maybe he stepped down for personal reasons at a whitehouse press conference. Yeaaaa that itttt. Who was he before that? Could he of been head of Saudi's Security (A George Tenet look alike maybe? who know s?) for 25 years.. Wow pretty high up thier in my book. How about yours?

Oh yea I almost forgot how did Iran take this? Well the pressman lied though so who cares? I do..haha

No all of a sudden Iran wanted to have a sweet ole peaceful Peace conference with Saudi. Who just happens to have the 6th strongest milatary in the world. Coincidence?

Oh yea and what did good ole Rick do when he came back? Could he of had a talk with the Bush Peacemakers?

yea I believe he did? Well ole GW he did not like this at all. He sat down and put his hand on his head and said" boys this is serious stuff. What would I do back in Texas.. Richard oh he got real excited oh boy boss what we gonna do. Whata we gonna do boss? huh? Huh? Well Rich You don't Mess with Texas. Yea.. Yea.. Boss tell me More Boss. Well Rich we will just call a good ole press conference and Do what Saudi wants. Whats that Boss? huh? huh? Well we will ask for 20 to 30 thousand more troops.. boss really? Yea that's itttt...Those Saudi's don't have noth'in on us Ricky oh Boy make it so Yes Boss... thier's the story straight from the Horss mouth. ( ahh too much Texas talk now I am calling myself a Horse..) Well u know the End of the story.. like I said Clinton should apply for Sainthood.... Little Devils of that was that Veny Guy Mr. UN sulfer man? Take care talked to much already.. (I think the CIA is monitoring this channel.. charley)... Miles

The only consensus in this thread, as far as I know, is that Fanta should put some pants on.

Miles, Shalom to you too. Do you have that towel a little tight around your head today?

Does anyone remember the Clinton veto of the Republican balanced budget plan in 1996? Clinton's politics were not all about green ecology.

Wait, the issue here was extremists vs moderates. Fanta and Miles seem to want to be the final word on who is extremist in the American Government. Well Miles, that good ol' boy rhetoric is just peachy. Now try opening your mind a little bit, otherwise who cares what you have to say. Fanta, it is pretty darn seldom I see someone so highly partisan as you. I don't think you could see a good act in a Republican if they were helping your own mother across the street. If a Democrat pushed her in front of a bus I think you would not fail to excuse or even praise them. It is simply pathetic, your inability to take an independent perspective on things.

Good job Search.

Now where was I? Oh yeah, moderates vs extremists, I think it would be to everyone's advantage to foster support for the moderates in highly volatile regions of the world where extremists are presently in control of large amounts of wealth and military might. This is not a cry for hatred towards Republicans. How you can construe it as such is mind-boggling.

Fanta, pants. Pants. Put on some damn pants.