slavery were still legal due to the inactions of the founding fathers, Jefferson having babies with his slaves gives an whole new meaning to the definition of "Founding Father"

but anyway AndyBgood ...remember you said that you were leaving the past alone and looking for solutions for today ....but yet here you are again ....I guess your word is about as good as the word of those politicians that you're constantly complaining about

Who was America founded by? Dissidents, refugees, religious extremists of the day (Puritans and Quakers) AND BUSINESSMEN!

Fact #1 pertaining to empires (and America so does Qualify):
All Empires are built on the backs of others.

Now with that in mind NOT ALL the founding fathers were Hypocrites. But again a truth delivered by a hypocrite is still the truth. There are a lot of injustices that happened over the course of American history but then again you think England is so innocent?

Honestly the Gun control issues is not anywhere near as hot as ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION really is! Therein lies a HUGE CLUSTERFUCQ just waiting to rear its ugly head fully! For one reason what does it do to our labor pool of legal migrants and locals?

Here is a quote from the movie the Gangs of New York that sums up the problem: Sorry but this was a very derogatory statement but it sums up the issue perfectly...



This is the REAL evil we need to face more than gun control. Gun Control is BAIT!

any and all of the founding fathers that drafted the Bill of Rights and didn't give those same rights to slaves and/or others...were hypocrites



not sure why you keep bringing ENGLAND into it ..it was the founding fathers...not the foundng Kings and Queens

Mental Health is the bait

You see, this statement right here. You are trying to attack me based on something that has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. I am sorry if I upset you, no offense was intended, but lets try to stay on topic here. This comment was utterly pointless.




Right here, i was merely responding to your wondering "how i seemed to know what parents are thinking" (which is another desperate attempt at an attack at my credibility). Based on crime reports there was no drop or rise in violence correlating with new laws prohibiting kids from bringing guns to school. (Remember i couldn't seem to find any before 1990?) Therefore, it was either the children who were already doing the right thing, or the parents. Unless you have a counter to that.



I believe i mentioned earlier where this argument also has little to do with the topic area because kids do not have the same rights adults making this inapplicable in reality. It not only falls under the critical thinking fallacy of straw-man (i think that's what its called), but also falls under another fallacy (or fallacy category) of oversimplification. Therefore this question cannot be answered honestly as either answer literally puts words in my mouth that i disagree with. The question is a trap.

You keep bringing the founding fathers into this. look at where we as a nation came from... Or doesn't that matter...

Likewise Mental Health is an issue and a symptom of the problem we face as a nation. Illegal Immigration is the REAL problem besides out of control spending. Guns don't leverage votes, people do and you flood America with new Voters what do you get? Poor people looking for more hand outs and promises of order they could not get in their own nation. All they do is trade us from one form of corruption to another. And to give voting rights to Illegal Immigrants? We are talking something worst than the flood gates of hell opening up in Kansas!

Please, what is the big picture as you see it?

Lewis Pharrakahn like Angst aimed at white America?

Liberal Vitriol spewed at Republicans exclusively?

Or maybe the NRA is to blame for everything I suppose?

OBAMA CARE SOLD US OUT IN WAYS I DOUBT YOU MIGHT SEE! It is BLATANTLY forcing something on us with no checks or balances to mitigate the costs of health care.

What is so wrong with adopting Germany's model for Insurance and health care?

I can't WAIT for your one line replies.

I just love all the justifications you hear from white folks to justify slavery of other races and their own race even...lol It is entertainment for a fairly intelligent mind anyway.

I am justifying it? HELLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOO! CAN YOU READ THIS?


I cited historical fact. Not made a opinion of it one way or the other except that personally I DON'T LIKE SLAVERY. I cannot justify it unless that person has done something so atrocious they deserve to be stripped of their rights as a person. Life sentence murderers maybe? But with that aside just citing a fact doe snot make it acceptance so maybe Willodraga you might stop attempting to bait me.

You imbarrising my whiteness!



meme is so damn funny sometimes!

no, I was answering "Drivinmenutz" questions about Jefferson, you {AndyBgood) and I had already made an agreement to leave the past out of the debates....everytime you guys talk about civil rights you hide behind quotes from Thomas Jefferson a guy that had slaves....oh the hypocrisy



under the Mental Health act, the government will be able to take away everyone guns, mental health is subjective... you guys are being played by the NRA, the NRA agrees with the stance when it comes to guns and Mental health



America always had illegal aliens, it is what makes America the greatest country on the planet ...now people are only complaining because they had to pay migrant workers money instead of getting free slave labor



he do the same against the Jews...but of course I will never hear you complain about that



I think the voters did that



NRA is only selling it's Products to make a fortune and using you to help them ...it's called Capitialism



there are lots of people out there with mental health issues which even you yourself claim is a problem in America...Obamacare gives them a way to get help



in that case what is wrong with adopting Canada's or Mexico's health care system...



why thank you AndyBgood ..my pleasure

my point was that you were abusing your self by using the term "overwhelming majority"....you might as well just said "more than a whole bunch" ...how would you know what an "overwhelming majority of parents agreed on" unless you're "Canank the Magnificient" and can read their minds

I asked what you what you believed...but yet you tried to avoid answering the question by including what the "overwhelming Majority" of parent believed as an attempt to give truth to your answer

so...er...why you trying to pull stuff like that on me?...How Rude



all you are doing perhaps without realizing it, is attmepting to prove that the children are smarter than Adults when it comes to guns and that's why the children choose not to have them



things happen to children the same as they happen to Adults but yet you are in here stating that children do not have the same 2nd amendment rights to protect themselves

it appears that you guys are more on Obama's side on the gun control issue then you realize ...or willing to admit

AH Fallacious as ever! I quote a LOT of people. I even make quotes from movies. Hell, I have even quoted books. So what? I quote the founding fathers? ONE MORE TIME, the truth is the truth even if delivered by a hypocrite. Neither of us can change that or the color of the noon sky!

I got to ask you, what planet are you on? Even at my most stoned I am NEVER off of planet Earth. Come to think of it my stoned is your normal! My normal is not normal. My normal is me moving at twice the speed as everyone else around me. I have to dumb it down to YOUR level most of the time. And look at what we got.

I rise an argument. You have to fallaciously attack with one line insults, grand assumptions, and insidious insinuation.

Big strong man, WEAK WEAK argument style. AGAIN I AM NOT A MEMBER OR AN AFFILIATE OF THE NRA IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM! I am just an American.

But I bet in your mind Jews don't qualify either.

Now for illegal immigration. It does not make America great. It spits in the eye of the laws and standards we set. Oh but when a law affects you it is bad. But if it affects me to my detriment it is good for you? You are sounding a touch racist here. Illegal Immigration is a crime. There is no reason for them to not get legitimate unless, UNLESS THEY REALLY ARE CRIMINALS! And to think that one dumbazz made the news recently when he was denied citizenship over his tattoos. he thought MS13 was a COOL tattoo to get. So who is the MS13? Marisol Triente 13? Dare I spell that one out for you? And Mexico's or Canada's Healthcare model? What do you know of their healthcare systems? I bet 0%.

Oh and I love how you say children choose to not have guns! Maybe the children of fearful pu$$y liberals who are too scared to put their azz where their mouths are. They have to hide behind men with uniforms and guns for that! Most kids i know WANT to get to shoot and even WANT to own their own gun. Most kids I know WANT to become adults. But what I see is Parents trying to relive their failed childhoods through their children and refuse to let them grow up. They are scared of letting their kids have responsibility.

What SICKENS me is I see so many people like you saying YOU KNOW BETTER THAN THE REST OF US and not only setting such a bad example for our children but likewise performing the damage to leave behind for our children to have to grapple with. We have become a society of gratuitous self indulgence. People have become queer for peace. Peace and freedom come with a cost and that cost will be too high to get it back when we loose it completely!

And on one last note, did you ever study even basic economics? Obamacare is 3000 pages of exclusions, riders, fees, nepotism, and a supremely costly system made to fail us and bankrupt us. If healthcare were truly free to us why, WHY would we need mandatory INSURANCE? We were sold out to THREE industries, Pharma, Healthcare itself, and Insurance. Why Germany's model of healthcare? LOOK IT UP AND QUIT TRYING TO PUT IT OFF ON ME TO DO YOUR HOMEWORK! I looked at what SOLVENT nations are doing to remain solvent. Why IS Germany solvent? I could answer that but you will just piss on the answer and go run off to the next tree to pee on.


Are you thick headed like a freshly poured Root Beer?

AndyBgood...it was "Drivemenutz" that made the statement about children opting on their own not to excerise their 2nd amendment rights to have guns or take them to school because of the danger of gun violence ....

oops... it appears that you and "Drivinmenutz" disagree on childen and gun control...so do that makes him one of those..er.."fearful pu$$y liberals?"

Well hey now, I just went back and reread a lot of posts. You are indeed putting words in Drivingmenutz mouth. Children are TECHNICALLY not afforded "Civil Rights" to a great degree due to them being wards of their parents. Don't beat me up over this information. I am not making this up. Find a lawyer and talk to them about it if you choose not to believe me. By all rights children have no business bringing a gun to school PERIOD! There are and ALWAYS was places people had to disarm to attend. Now a days if you are certified with the card you can carry a gun ANYWHERE YOU WANT INCLUDING SCHOOLS AND THEY CAN SUCK IT! A certified concealed carry permit is a trump card. I feel safer with a regular gun toting citizen than I do with a gun toting cop!

And just hot off the news this morning, we got a rogue cop on a cop hunt. OH YEAH! Talk your way out of that one!

but AndyBgood... you yourself was telling about how alaskan children should carry guns to school because of bears ...which means you do disagree with "Drivinmenutz" .....

rule number 1...already remember what you post

K now, having had friends who came from destinations like Keskatchiwan Alaska as well as other destinations I can't even pronounce some of these folks GREW UP there. And having been teenagers attending high school and mom and dad working they had to go via Snowmobile by winter or spring time on horseback or motorcycle to get to school where they lived. Pretty country side, Pretty frikken big bears! And they had to go to school armed and they had to check their guns in every day. Their horses were kept near the police station (HA if you could call the cubicles they had a police station!). This was normal there becasue the threat the bears pose! They actually had to have parents WITH guns volunteer to watch the younger children at the bus stops. Now that is just Alaska. That place IS an extreme. But there are rural communities where armed teenagers is not a surprise at all.

And it has been my past experience some kids are absolute shyte heads like adults are and some really are responsible, maybe not mature but really responsible in the honest sense. but we punish responsibility these days do we not?

And I thought rule # 1 was he with the gold makes the rules...

And to insure I am not being a hypocrite, there are cases that will test common sense. There is no threat to our children from bears her in Los Angeles or Detroit or Miami. But Alaska, and a couple of other states do have dangerous wildlife and armed teenagers is a reality THERE! But again it is a matter of common sense and there are checks in place that prevent shootings in these rural areas. Smaller communities function differently from the Big City model!

The problem is kids going gangster with guns in schools. The problem is kids wanting to project power at such a young age. It is corruption of personal responsibility.

But then again what if a kid fears for his life enough he feels a need to defend himself? Gang violence here is a reality and they like to sneak up behind you and jab a shiv into you from behind. So please tell me again how gun control will solve anything? Maybe the system itself has lost sight of its mission in life... maybe parents are screwing up completely. Maybe too much government involvement and too much TV has turned people's brains to mud.


So there. I am not a hypocrite. What it is is you seem to be under some impression children are not responsible. or at least incapable of responsibility... How about bad parenting? By 12 a decent child is tying to do something with themselves. They are trying to discover who and what they are. But does that mean a 12 year old cannot discern right from wrong? What age are we drawing such implicit lines at? So far the youngest child to have gone on one of our shooting trips was 8 years old. Honestly the kid EARNED the trip. He really did prove himself and on the firing line he actually could handle the mouse guns we had among us. But he was clear he thought guns had no place going to school with him. That attitude contributed to him being able to go with his father and us.

Fear is SO not the answer! And so far all I see is FEAR being sold!


NOT BUYING!

again it wasn't me that stated that children shouldn't be allowed to excercise their 2nd amendment rights by taking guns to school...it was "Drivinmenutz" ...but yet you have tunnel vision and keep addressing me as if I was making the statements but amazingly haven't address the one that actually made the statements because you both believe that you are against gun restrictions...that's why you seem like a hypocrite

WOULD YOU PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE? I looked and I might be missing it so please illuminate me... you quote SO well...

heck...forget about Driveinmenutz"...perhaps you're learn more if I quote where you yourself indicated that children should not have the right to carry a gun "period"



see AndyBgood...first you claim alaskan children should carry guns to school because of Bears then you contradict yourself and claim that no children should have that right

now do you understand why you are a hypocrite and one of those fearful pu$$y liberals you're always complaining about

Like I said there are qualifying extreme situations. We have to keep in mind there are indeed situations where the rules as we write them in black and white get turned on their ear hence my predisposition to gray law. Where one sets the extremes others will find greater extremes. You are one for taking things to the greatest extremes possible. Heck, I'll go one farther. How about some nutcase experimenting with space folding on earth itself and suddenly does pull off creating a weaponizable warp that makes what an A Bomb more like a fire cracker in comparison to opening a hole between the surface of the earth and say the SUN! So now we have a person effing around with something that grants him the capacity to either suck the atmosphere away or to incinerate huge swaths of land. Is that a citizen's right to put all our lives in jeopardy in the name of science? How and where do we draw the line? Just pick the most bizarre extreme and go from there? Imagine if a college offered a weapons safety class just the cluster fucq it would be for police officers teaching the class to bring a demonstrator weapon. But there is no reason they cannot teach gun safety at a police station. Now if I was a student and my life really was at risk and I did feel a serious need to carry I would rules be damned. But that would mean I am directly threatened. Really I don't see a need per say to go around armed all the time but lately the way the police here are freaking out I am more compelled than ever to invest in armor for my vehicle.

How about a real issue instead of arguing over kids dragging guns to school...



Now we talk about how bad kids with guns are. Look at what our "protectors" with guns do to us...

I have to really and I mean REALLY worry about getting shot at by the cops sight unseen!

Schools are a place of learning. Unfortunately the system has failed us more and more over the years. Children are being stripped of their childhoods. Where the extreme applies rules are usually in place such as when a student in an area that a gun is a matter of survival needs to carry one to and from school then it goes back to the days of the old west where they checked their iron in at an armory, got a claim check, and went to class sans iron. When the left for home they claim their gun and go home. And if two students have blood between them usually the parents are required to pick their kids up ad the parents are forced into a resolution process to prevent people from getting stupid with their tools!

Knives are not allowed in schools at all either yet they find their way in. knife, gun, is one truly worst than the other?

Our culture itself is a dangerous weapon. This clique society we live in breeds monsters. And I live in the land of THE CLIQUE. And we got a REAL bad monster running around. I actually am less scared of the killer we got running around than the police becasue at least he know who he is after and who he wants to kill. The funny thing is he will surrender if the people he wants dead come clean about their improprieties as police officers. I have to give credence to the killer's demands becasue what he wants is FAR to specific and far too much of a crusade and likewise his demands are not exactly what I would call that of a deranged man.

But more and more people are feeling like their backs are being slammed into a wall and we all know desperate people do desperate things. But then again so do power tripping thugs, stupid people, passive aggressive liberal pro lifers... But what of the person who has decided enough is enough and they decide to fight back?

I feel above all this corrupt system we call a police service, and our own government, and perverted justice system are to blame for what looms over our heads now. This man is SOOOOO pissed off he took up arms against his own... Well, at least ex fellow police officers. We don't have a system of respect. We got a system of victims keep us in work! Shut up and play along or else... That is the rules here!