Topic: Israel attack on Gaza:
no photo
Sat 11/17/12 03:42 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Sat 11/17/12 03:44 PM
So Metalwing won't think I'm ignoring his posts.



Many percieve terrorists as acting alone (which never happens), without realizing how they got to be terrorists in the first place. Indoctrination on a large scale must have taken place over impressionable years and much of it comes from the mothers who are just an active part of the terrorist community as the financiers, weapon makers, planners, and leadership.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av1-yWX1TmI This video is very short. Look at the smile.



And you don't think indoctrination occurs in the Israeli military? Every Israeli citizen MUST serve time and be indoctrinated in order to be a full Israeli citizen.

Israel's fire power far out guns the Palestinians.

The only weapon the Palestinians have against Israel is the press. If they launch a rocket from a school and Israel launches an all out attack at the school, the Palestinians win because it makes Israel look like the bully that they are.

So who is out smarting whom?

In our society, if a sniper is shooting people from the top of a sky scraper, does our police and military bomb the entire building? Of course not.

Not yet anyway.... but the web bot predicts that this type of thing will happen in our not too distant future.




s1owhand's photo
Sat 11/17/12 03:44 PM


Conclusion

Politicians who are entrusted with securing the peace in the Middle East fail to see reality. Inasmuch as negotiators will not name the evil they confront, they remain blind to it. Enjoying the complicity of the media, leaders in the Obama administration and elsewhere refuse to refer to Islamist fascists as either Islamists or as fascists.

Such a position reflects an inexcusable, willful ignorance of the history, religion, culture, and languages that go into the making of modern jihadism. What must be understood above all is this: Hamas and Fatah have developed a theological and ideological justification that precludes any negotiations that would lead to a lasting peace with a Jewish state. At best, one can expect an application of the PLO's phased strategy, which gives the illusion of peace without renouncing its goal of Jewish extermination. Neither Hamas nor Fatah can agree in good faith to any peace with the Jews since in their eyes to do so would amount to treason or apostasy or both. What then is to be done beyond naming the evil? Simply stated, Islamist jihadism must be eliminated, and given their ideological stances, neither Hamas nor Fatah can be a viable partner in peace; therefore, their removal from power is a prerequisite to any future for Israelis and Palestinians alike. Whether the present revolutionary turmoil sweeping the Arab world will produce such a result remains to be seen.

David Patterson is Hillel Feinberg Chair in Holocaust studies at the University of Texas at Dallas. This article is based on research done for his book A Genealogy of Evil: Anti-Semitism from Nazism to Islamic Jihad (Cambridge University Press, 2011).


Is THAT what you all are supporting?



I don't support anyone thinking that they must eliminate anyone. That goes for both sides. Don't you get that?


Yes we all get it. Israel is not trying to eliminate anyone. They
ACCEPT the idea of a Palestinian state.

But Hamas IS trying to eliminate Israel and is firing rockets with
the sole purpose of killing innocent civilians.

no photo
Sat 11/17/12 03:46 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Sat 11/17/12 03:50 PM



Conclusion

Politicians who are entrusted with securing the peace in the Middle East fail to see reality. Inasmuch as negotiators will not name the evil they confront, they remain blind to it. Enjoying the complicity of the media, leaders in the Obama administration and elsewhere refuse to refer to Islamist fascists as either Islamists or as fascists.

Such a position reflects an inexcusable, willful ignorance of the history, religion, culture, and languages that go into the making of modern jihadism. What must be understood above all is this: Hamas and Fatah have developed a theological and ideological justification that precludes any negotiations that would lead to a lasting peace with a Jewish state. At best, one can expect an application of the PLO's phased strategy, which gives the illusion of peace without renouncing its goal of Jewish extermination. Neither Hamas nor Fatah can agree in good faith to any peace with the Jews since in their eyes to do so would amount to treason or apostasy or both. What then is to be done beyond naming the evil? Simply stated, Islamist jihadism must be eliminated, and given their ideological stances, neither Hamas nor Fatah can be a viable partner in peace; therefore, their removal from power is a prerequisite to any future for Israelis and Palestinians alike. Whether the present revolutionary turmoil sweeping the Arab world will produce such a result remains to be seen.

David Patterson is Hillel Feinberg Chair in Holocaust studies at the University of Texas at Dallas. This article is based on research done for his book A Genealogy of Evil: Anti-Semitism from Nazism to Islamic Jihad (Cambridge University Press, 2011).


Is THAT what you all are supporting?



I don't support anyone thinking that they must eliminate anyone. That goes for both sides. Don't you get that?


Yes we all get it. Israel is not trying to eliminate anyone. They
ACCEPT the idea of a Palestinian state.




Really? Do you think the right way to eliminate the Hamas or Fatah or any other political party is by assassinating them?

Quote from the post above:

"Simply stated, Islamist jihadism must be eliminated, and given their ideological stances, neither Hamas nor Fatah can be a viable partner in peace; therefore, their removal from power is a prerequisite to any future for Israelis and Palestinians alike."

And do you think that violence is the way to attempt to eliminate the idea of jihadism or any other kind of religious way of thinking?


I think violence only serves to strengthen their resolve generation after generation.


no photo
Sat 11/17/12 03:48 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Sat 11/17/12 03:54 PM
But Hamas IS trying to eliminate Israel and is firing rockets with
the sole purpose of killing innocent civilians.



You don't know that. I'm sure if Hamas had the fire power or the means, they would much prefer to eliminate the prime minister and the other top Israeli leaders. But they don't have the capability.

Of themselves, they have no chance in hell of eliminating Israel.

The only way is through the press and by getting Iran and Egypt involved in the fight so they love it when Israel takes the bait and starts "defending" itself.

That is exactly what they want. Israel falls for it every time.









Sojourning_Soul's photo
Sat 11/17/12 05:13 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sgl0JnE4B_4&feature=player_embedded

no photo
Sat 11/17/12 05:32 PM



Nice News video. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

HotRodDeluxe's photo
Sat 11/17/12 05:35 PM
Edited by HotRodDeluxe on Sat 11/17/12 05:57 PM



You can know them by their deeds.

They can claim to be innocent, victims, etc. but if you watch what they actually do, you know they are terrorists.

They want the people of Gaza to fear them. They terrorize them. They kill innocents, they destroy homes, they assassinate leaders and scientists. They associate with known terrorists.

Israel is clearly a terrorist state.

Innocent Jews living in Israel would be wise to leave while there is still time. Their corrupt Nazi leadership will abandon them to the hordes after they succeed in pissing off all of their neighbors.





Now that is classic propaganda-and a classic Godwin to boot!

On another note, it is quite revealing how you choose to completely ignore the fact that Hamas intimidated and rounded up up its political opponents both before, and after the election when it is common knowledge. Your feigned ignorance merely illustrates your bias.


I have only heard rumors of that. I don't consider it to be "common knowledge." Do you offer anything like proof to back up that claim?


Why? For any proof I offer you will be ignored for some fanciful reason (i.e. some specious claim that facts are only opinion, or some other sophist BS).

Meanwhile, you can try this for a start, then see how you go.

In June 2007, the Palestinian terrorist organization launched a surprise coup in the Gaza Strip, wresting control of the territory from the Fatah faction, which controls the Palestinian Authority (PA).
• In that battle, 161 Palestinians were killed and more than 700 were wounded. To make sure that the wounded did not return to the battlefield, Hamas shot dozens of their enemies in the legs and arms at point blank range to ensure permanent disabilities.
• When the dust settled, the Palestinian people were divided. Gaza (1.5 million people) remained in Hamas’ hands, and Fatah clung to the West Bank (2.5 million people).
• Since then, the two largest Palestinian factions – Hamas and Fatah – continue to be at war. They round up their political foes in these two territories. They shut down newspapers. Reports of torture are everywhere.
• Numerous attempts to reconcile the two factions have failed. Egypt, Turkey, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Mauritania have all come up short.
• However, the Palestinian civil war makes peacemaking exceeding difficult. There is not universally-recognized interlocutor on the Palestinian side.
• Today, if Israel ceded all of the West Bank, removed security checkpoints, and gave in to all Palestinian claims on Jerusalem, there would no legitimate Palestinian representative to ratify an agreement.
• The factions have been at odds over ideology since Hamas was founded in 1987. Hamas is an Islamist group, and Fatah is largely secular. The groups challenged each other politically during the 1990s.
• In the aftermath of the “al-Aqsa Intifada” of 2000, the two factions began to fight each other, even as the Palestinians fought a war against Israel.
• When Yassir Arafat died in 2004, a leadership vacuum opened. The Palestinian Authority had already been weakened by war with Israel. Hamas had grown to roughly equal strength with Fatah.
• In January 2006, Palestinians elected Hamas to power. Fatah, with backing from the United States, refused to allow Hamas to govern.
• A stalemate ensued, leading to the aforementioned 2007 civil war in Gaza.
• Currently, two Palestinian mini-states are growing in two different directions. The Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip is funded by Iran and is evolving into a dangerous terrorist state. The Fatah-controlled West Bank enjoys support from the West and Arab states.
• The Palestinians of the West Bank are now mulling a “unilateral declaration of independence.”
•This unilateral move is dangerous because it would effectively solidify the split between the West Bank and Gaza, and possibly permanently divide the Palestinians.
• Similarly, a peace process that does not first solve the Palestinian internecine conflict could permanently divide the Palestinians.


If you can put aside your prejudice momentarily, you might be able to understand the conflict in a bi-partisan fashion.




HotRodDeluxe's photo
Sat 11/17/12 05:53 PM


That's not news, but merely a biased, editorial commentary. Can't you tell the difference?

no photo
Sat 11/17/12 05:56 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Sat 11/17/12 05:57 PM



That's not news, but merely a biased, editorial commentary. Can't you tell the difference?


Yes, it was definitely an editorial opinion piece, but it did have news. It is refreshing to hear someone else's honest opinion.

(Instead of the drab propaganda we are constantly bombarded with.)




HotRodDeluxe's photo
Sat 11/17/12 05:59 PM




That's not news, but merely a biased, editorial commentary. Can't you tell the difference?


Yes, it was definitely an editorial opinion piece, but it did have news. It is refreshing to hear someone else's honest opinion.

(Instead of the drab propaganda we are constantly bombarded with.)


But that is all it is. Propaganda crap. Is your definition of 'propaganda' only that opinion which you disagree with?

no photo
Sat 11/17/12 06:02 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Sat 11/17/12 06:03 PM




You can know them by their deeds.

They can claim to be innocent, victims, etc. but if you watch what they actually do, you know they are terrorists.

They want the people of Gaza to fear them. They terrorize them. They kill innocents, they destroy homes, they assassinate leaders and scientists. They associate with known terrorists.

Israel is clearly a terrorist state.

Innocent Jews living in Israel would be wise to leave while there is still time. Their corrupt Nazi leadership will abandon them to the hordes after they succeed in pissing off all of their neighbors.





Now that is classic propaganda-and a classic Godwin to boot!

On another note, it is quite revealing how you choose to completely ignore the fact that Hamas intimidated and rounded up up its political opponents both before, and after the election when it is common knowledge. Your feigned ignorance merely illustrates your bias.


I have only heard rumors of that. I don't consider it to be "common knowledge." Do you offer anything like proof to back up that claim?


Why? For any proof I offer you will be ignored for some fanciful reason (i.e. some specious claim that facts are only opinion, or some other sophist BS).

Meanwhile, you can try this for a start, then see how you go.

In June 2007, the Palestinian terrorist organization launched a surprise coup in the Gaza Strip, wresting control of the territory from the Fatah faction, which controls the Palestinian Authority (PA).
• In that battle, 161 Palestinians were killed and more than 700 were wounded. To make sure that the wounded did not return to the battlefield, Hamas shot dozens of their enemies in the legs and arms at point blank range to ensure permanent disabilities.
• When the dust settled, the Palestinian people were divided. Gaza (1.5 million people) remained in Hamas’ hands, and Fatah clung to the West Bank (2.5 million people).
• Since then, the two largest Palestinian factions – Hamas and Fatah – continue to be at war. They round up their political foes in these two territories. They shut down newspapers. Reports of torture are everywhere.
• Numerous attempts to reconcile the two factions have failed. Egypt, Turkey, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Mauritania have all come up short.
• However, the Palestinian civil war makes peacemaking exceeding difficult. There is not universally-recognized interlocutor on the Palestinian side.
• Today, if Israel ceded all of the West Bank, removed security checkpoints, and gave in to all Palestinian claims on Jerusalem, there would no legitimate Palestinian representative to ratify an agreement.
• The factions have been at odds over ideology since Hamas was founded in 1987. Hamas is an Islamist group, and Fatah is largely secular. The groups challenged each other politically during the 1990s.
• In the aftermath of the “al-Aqsa Intifada” of 2000, the two factions began to fight each other, even as the Palestinians fought a war against Israel.
• When Yassir Arafat died in 2004, a leadership vacuum opened. The Palestinian Authority had already been weakened by war with Israel. Hamas had grown to roughly equal strength with Fatah.
• In January 2006, Palestinians elected Hamas to power. Fatah, with backing from the United States, refused to allow Hamas to govern.
• A stalemate ensued, leading to the aforementioned 2007 civil war in Gaza.
• Currently, two Palestinian mini-states are growing in two different directions. The Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip is funded by Iran and is evolving into a dangerous terrorist state. The Fatah-controlled West Bank enjoys support from the West and Arab states.
• The Palestinians of the West Bank are now mulling a “unilateral declaration of independence.”
•This unilateral move is dangerous because it would effectively solidify the split between the West Bank and Gaza, and possibly permanently divide the Palestinians.
• Similarly, a peace process that does not first solve the Palestinian internecine conflict could permanently divide the Palestinians.


If you can put aside your prejudice momentarily, you might be able to understand the conflict in a bi-partisan fashion.




When elections don't do it, a civil war can happen.

America also had a civil war. It was a tragic event. Brother killing brother.

I don't know all the details of that either. I'm sure there was a lot of torture going on there too.


The south is still bitter about it, and some still wave the confederate flag.








no photo
Sat 11/17/12 06:04 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Sat 11/17/12 06:06 PM





That's not news, but merely a biased, editorial commentary. Can't you tell the difference?


Yes, it was definitely an editorial opinion piece, but it did have news. It is refreshing to hear someone else's honest opinion.

(Instead of the drab propaganda we are constantly bombarded with.)


But that is all it is. Propaganda crap. Is your definition of 'propaganda' only that opinion which you disagree with?


No, it is not propaganda at all. It is clearly an editorial opinion piece backed by facts.

What we see on the major media is often lies, and they want you to believe them and accept them as fact, not opinion.

This is clearly an opinion piece. Our "news" is often vague and slanted and even fabricated.




HotRodDeluxe's photo
Sat 11/17/12 06:06 PM





You can know them by their deeds.

They can claim to be innocent, victims, etc. but if you watch what they actually do, you know they are terrorists.

They want the people of Gaza to fear them. They terrorize them. They kill innocents, they destroy homes, they assassinate leaders and scientists. They associate with known terrorists.

Israel is clearly a terrorist state.

Innocent Jews living in Israel would be wise to leave while there is still time. Their corrupt Nazi leadership will abandon them to the hordes after they succeed in pissing off all of their neighbors.





Now that is classic propaganda-and a classic Godwin to boot!

On another note, it is quite revealing how you choose to completely ignore the fact that Hamas intimidated and rounded up up its political opponents both before, and after the election when it is common knowledge. Your feigned ignorance merely illustrates your bias.


I have only heard rumors of that. I don't consider it to be "common knowledge." Do you offer anything like proof to back up that claim?


Why? For any proof I offer you will be ignored for some fanciful reason (i.e. some specious claim that facts are only opinion, or some other sophist BS).

Meanwhile, you can try this for a start, then see how you go.

In June 2007, the Palestinian terrorist organization launched a surprise coup in the Gaza Strip, wresting control of the territory from the Fatah faction, which controls the Palestinian Authority (PA).
• In that battle, 161 Palestinians were killed and more than 700 were wounded. To make sure that the wounded did not return to the battlefield, Hamas shot dozens of their enemies in the legs and arms at point blank range to ensure permanent disabilities.
• When the dust settled, the Palestinian people were divided. Gaza (1.5 million people) remained in Hamas’ hands, and Fatah clung to the West Bank (2.5 million people).
• Since then, the two largest Palestinian factions – Hamas and Fatah – continue to be at war. They round up their political foes in these two territories. They shut down newspapers. Reports of torture are everywhere.
• Numerous attempts to reconcile the two factions have failed. Egypt, Turkey, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Mauritania have all come up short.
• However, the Palestinian civil war makes peacemaking exceeding difficult. There is not universally-recognized interlocutor on the Palestinian side.
• Today, if Israel ceded all of the West Bank, removed security checkpoints, and gave in to all Palestinian claims on Jerusalem, there would no legitimate Palestinian representative to ratify an agreement.
• The factions have been at odds over ideology since Hamas was founded in 1987. Hamas is an Islamist group, and Fatah is largely secular. The groups challenged each other politically during the 1990s.
• In the aftermath of the “al-Aqsa Intifada” of 2000, the two factions began to fight each other, even as the Palestinians fought a war against Israel.
• When Yassir Arafat died in 2004, a leadership vacuum opened. The Palestinian Authority had already been weakened by war with Israel. Hamas had grown to roughly equal strength with Fatah.
• In January 2006, Palestinians elected Hamas to power. Fatah, with backing from the United States, refused to allow Hamas to govern.
• A stalemate ensued, leading to the aforementioned 2007 civil war in Gaza.
• Currently, two Palestinian mini-states are growing in two different directions. The Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip is funded by Iran and is evolving into a dangerous terrorist state. The Fatah-controlled West Bank enjoys support from the West and Arab states.
• The Palestinians of the West Bank are now mulling a “unilateral declaration of independence.”
•This unilateral move is dangerous because it would effectively solidify the split between the West Bank and Gaza, and possibly permanently divide the Palestinians.
• Similarly, a peace process that does not first solve the Palestinian internecine conflict could permanently divide the Palestinians.


If you can put aside your prejudice momentarily, you might be able to understand the conflict in a bi-partisan fashion.




When elections don't do it, a civil war can happen.

America also had a civil war. It was a tragic event. Brother killing brother.

I don't know all the details of that either. I'm sure there was a lot of torture going on there too.


The south is still bitter about it, and some still wave the confederate flag.


Yes, that is all common knowledge AND a Red Herring. Despite that, my original point stands and it is not merely a rumour as you attempted to dismiss it. The two parties (Hamas and Fatah) were at odds when Hamas took control of the Gaza strip.

no photo
Sat 11/17/12 06:09 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Sat 11/17/12 06:09 PM
Is your definition of 'propaganda' only that opinion which you disagree with?


Not at all.

Propaganda is like an advertisement for a political candidate, only it is reporting bits and pieces of events with the agenda of molding the public opinion into believing something that is simply not true and accurate or in choosing sides in some conflict.


no photo
Sat 11/17/12 06:11 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Sat 11/17/12 06:12 PM






You can know them by their deeds.

They can claim to be innocent, victims, etc. but if you watch what they actually do, you know they are terrorists.

They want the people of Gaza to fear them. They terrorize them. They kill innocents, they destroy homes, they assassinate leaders and scientists. They associate with known terrorists.

Israel is clearly a terrorist state.

Innocent Jews living in Israel would be wise to leave while there is still time. Their corrupt Nazi leadership will abandon them to the hordes after they succeed in pissing off all of their neighbors.





Now that is classic propaganda-and a classic Godwin to boot!

On another note, it is quite revealing how you choose to completely ignore the fact that Hamas intimidated and rounded up up its political opponents both before, and after the election when it is common knowledge. Your feigned ignorance merely illustrates your bias.


I have only heard rumors of that. I don't consider it to be "common knowledge." Do you offer anything like proof to back up that claim?


Why? For any proof I offer you will be ignored for some fanciful reason (i.e. some specious claim that facts are only opinion, or some other sophist BS).

Meanwhile, you can try this for a start, then see how you go.

In June 2007, the Palestinian terrorist organization launched a surprise coup in the Gaza Strip, wresting control of the territory from the Fatah faction, which controls the Palestinian Authority (PA).
• In that battle, 161 Palestinians were killed and more than 700 were wounded. To make sure that the wounded did not return to the battlefield, Hamas shot dozens of their enemies in the legs and arms at point blank range to ensure permanent disabilities.
• When the dust settled, the Palestinian people were divided. Gaza (1.5 million people) remained in Hamas’ hands, and Fatah clung to the West Bank (2.5 million people).
• Since then, the two largest Palestinian factions – Hamas and Fatah – continue to be at war. They round up their political foes in these two territories. They shut down newspapers. Reports of torture are everywhere.
• Numerous attempts to reconcile the two factions have failed. Egypt, Turkey, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Mauritania have all come up short.
• However, the Palestinian civil war makes peacemaking exceeding difficult. There is not universally-recognized interlocutor on the Palestinian side.
• Today, if Israel ceded all of the West Bank, removed security checkpoints, and gave in to all Palestinian claims on Jerusalem, there would no legitimate Palestinian representative to ratify an agreement.
• The factions have been at odds over ideology since Hamas was founded in 1987. Hamas is an Islamist group, and Fatah is largely secular. The groups challenged each other politically during the 1990s.
• In the aftermath of the “al-Aqsa Intifada” of 2000, the two factions began to fight each other, even as the Palestinians fought a war against Israel.
• When Yassir Arafat died in 2004, a leadership vacuum opened. The Palestinian Authority had already been weakened by war with Israel. Hamas had grown to roughly equal strength with Fatah.
• In January 2006, Palestinians elected Hamas to power. Fatah, with backing from the United States, refused to allow Hamas to govern.
• A stalemate ensued, leading to the aforementioned 2007 civil war in Gaza.
• Currently, two Palestinian mini-states are growing in two different directions. The Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip is funded by Iran and is evolving into a dangerous terrorist state. The Fatah-controlled West Bank enjoys support from the West and Arab states.
• The Palestinians of the West Bank are now mulling a “unilateral declaration of independence.”
•This unilateral move is dangerous because it would effectively solidify the split between the West Bank and Gaza, and possibly permanently divide the Palestinians.
• Similarly, a peace process that does not first solve the Palestinian internecine conflict could permanently divide the Palestinians.


If you can put aside your prejudice momentarily, you might be able to understand the conflict in a bi-partisan fashion.




When elections don't do it, a civil war can happen.

America also had a civil war. It was a tragic event. Brother killing brother.

I don't know all the details of that either. I'm sure there was a lot of torture going on there too.


The south is still bitter about it, and some still wave the confederate flag.


Yes, that is all common knowledge AND a Red Herring. Despite that, my original point stands and it is not merely a rumour as you attempted to dismiss it. The two parties (Hamas and Fatah) were at odds when Hamas took control of the Gaza strip.


A civil war, yes. So your only point then is that the election was not "fair?"

I think you can say that in most elections.

In America, Presidents are bought by the filthy rich. They are installed. They are also not "fair."

We are more civilized.


HotRodDeluxe's photo
Sat 11/17/12 06:12 PM






That's not news, but merely a biased, editorial commentary. Can't you tell the difference?


Yes, it was definitely an editorial opinion piece, but it did have news. It is refreshing to hear someone else's honest opinion.

(Instead of the drab propaganda we are constantly bombarded with.)


But that is all it is. Propaganda crap. Is your definition of 'propaganda' only that opinion which you disagree with?


No, it is not propaganda at all. It is clearly an editorial opinion piece backed by facts.

What we see on the major media is often lies, and they want you to believe them and accept them as fact, not opinion.

This is clearly an opinion piece. Our "news" is often vague and slanted and even fabricated.



I see, you're unfamiliar with the definition of propaganda. Because the piece proffers a biased and opinionated slant, it is automatically trying to influence the audience, therefore it can be considered propaganda.

But I'm sure you'll define it any way you see fit to suit your bias.

HotRodDeluxe's photo
Sat 11/17/12 06:13 PM







You can know them by their deeds.

They can claim to be innocent, victims, etc. but if you watch what they actually do, you know they are terrorists.

They want the people of Gaza to fear them. They terrorize them. They kill innocents, they destroy homes, they assassinate leaders and scientists. They associate with known terrorists.

Israel is clearly a terrorist state.

Innocent Jews living in Israel would be wise to leave while there is still time. Their corrupt Nazi leadership will abandon them to the hordes after they succeed in pissing off all of their neighbors.





Now that is classic propaganda-and a classic Godwin to boot!

On another note, it is quite revealing how you choose to completely ignore the fact that Hamas intimidated and rounded up up its political opponents both before, and after the election when it is common knowledge. Your feigned ignorance merely illustrates your bias.


I have only heard rumors of that. I don't consider it to be "common knowledge." Do you offer anything like proof to back up that claim?


Why? For any proof I offer you will be ignored for some fanciful reason (i.e. some specious claim that facts are only opinion, or some other sophist BS).

Meanwhile, you can try this for a start, then see how you go.

In June 2007, the Palestinian terrorist organization launched a surprise coup in the Gaza Strip, wresting control of the territory from the Fatah faction, which controls the Palestinian Authority (PA).
• In that battle, 161 Palestinians were killed and more than 700 were wounded. To make sure that the wounded did not return to the battlefield, Hamas shot dozens of their enemies in the legs and arms at point blank range to ensure permanent disabilities.
• When the dust settled, the Palestinian people were divided. Gaza (1.5 million people) remained in Hamas’ hands, and Fatah clung to the West Bank (2.5 million people).
• Since then, the two largest Palestinian factions – Hamas and Fatah – continue to be at war. They round up their political foes in these two territories. They shut down newspapers. Reports of torture are everywhere.
• Numerous attempts to reconcile the two factions have failed. Egypt, Turkey, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Mauritania have all come up short.
• However, the Palestinian civil war makes peacemaking exceeding difficult. There is not universally-recognized interlocutor on the Palestinian side.
• Today, if Israel ceded all of the West Bank, removed security checkpoints, and gave in to all Palestinian claims on Jerusalem, there would no legitimate Palestinian representative to ratify an agreement.
• The factions have been at odds over ideology since Hamas was founded in 1987. Hamas is an Islamist group, and Fatah is largely secular. The groups challenged each other politically during the 1990s.
• In the aftermath of the “al-Aqsa Intifada” of 2000, the two factions began to fight each other, even as the Palestinians fought a war against Israel.
• When Yassir Arafat died in 2004, a leadership vacuum opened. The Palestinian Authority had already been weakened by war with Israel. Hamas had grown to roughly equal strength with Fatah.
• In January 2006, Palestinians elected Hamas to power. Fatah, with backing from the United States, refused to allow Hamas to govern.
• A stalemate ensued, leading to the aforementioned 2007 civil war in Gaza.
• Currently, two Palestinian mini-states are growing in two different directions. The Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip is funded by Iran and is evolving into a dangerous terrorist state. The Fatah-controlled West Bank enjoys support from the West and Arab states.
• The Palestinians of the West Bank are now mulling a “unilateral declaration of independence.”
•This unilateral move is dangerous because it would effectively solidify the split between the West Bank and Gaza, and possibly permanently divide the Palestinians.
• Similarly, a peace process that does not first solve the Palestinian internecine conflict could permanently divide the Palestinians.


If you can put aside your prejudice momentarily, you might be able to understand the conflict in a bi-partisan fashion.




When elections don't do it, a civil war can happen.

America also had a civil war. It was a tragic event. Brother killing brother.

I don't know all the details of that either. I'm sure there was a lot of torture going on there too.


The south is still bitter about it, and some still wave the confederate flag.


Yes, that is all common knowledge AND a Red Herring. Despite that, my original point stands and it is not merely a rumour as you attempted to dismiss it. The two parties (Hamas and Fatah) were at odds when Hamas took control of the Gaza strip.


A civil war, yes. So your only point then is that the election was not "fair?"

I think you can say that in most elections.

In America, Presidents are bought by the filthy rich. They are installed. They are also not "fair."

We are more civilized.




An irrelevance and a Red Herring. These attempts at obfuscation are quite tedious.

no photo
Sat 11/17/12 06:16 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Sat 11/17/12 06:17 PM







That's not news, but merely a biased, editorial commentary. Can't you tell the difference?


Yes, it was definitely an editorial opinion piece, but it did have news. It is refreshing to hear someone else's honest opinion.

(Instead of the drab propaganda we are constantly bombarded with.)


But that is all it is. Propaganda crap. Is your definition of 'propaganda' only that opinion which you disagree with?


No, it is not propaganda at all. It is clearly an editorial opinion piece backed by facts.

What we see on the major media is often lies, and they want you to believe them and accept them as fact, not opinion.

This is clearly an opinion piece. Our "news" is often vague and slanted and even fabricated.



I see, you're unfamiliar with the definition of propaganda. Because the piece proffers a biased and opinionated slant, it is automatically trying to influence the audience, therefore it can be considered propaganda.

But I'm sure you'll define it any way you see fit to suit your bias.


Ah but because it is CLEARLY an editorial, people can either agree or disagree with it knowing that it is an editorial.

With true propaganda, they attempt to pass it off as TRUTH OR fact or "self evident" when it is a deviation from truth or a lie.

Believe us because we are the "news." We would not steer you wrong. We are the news. Your president would never lie to you. Your government would never lie to you. Believe EVERYTHING WE TELL YOU.

FOOLS.


no photo
Sat 11/17/12 06:18 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Sat 11/17/12 06:21 PM








You can know them by their deeds.

They can claim to be innocent, victims, etc. but if you watch what they actually do, you know they are terrorists.

They want the people of Gaza to fear them. They terrorize them. They kill innocents, they destroy homes, they assassinate leaders and scientists. They associate with known terrorists.

Israel is clearly a terrorist state.

Innocent Jews living in Israel would be wise to leave while there is still time. Their corrupt Nazi leadership will abandon them to the hordes after they succeed in pissing off all of their neighbors.





Now that is classic propaganda-and a classic Godwin to boot!

On another note, it is quite revealing how you choose to completely ignore the fact that Hamas intimidated and rounded up up its political opponents both before, and after the election when it is common knowledge. Your feigned ignorance merely illustrates your bias.


I have only heard rumors of that. I don't consider it to be "common knowledge." Do you offer anything like proof to back up that claim?


Why? For any proof I offer you will be ignored for some fanciful reason (i.e. some specious claim that facts are only opinion, or some other sophist BS).

Meanwhile, you can try this for a start, then see how you go.

In June 2007, the Palestinian terrorist organization launched a surprise coup in the Gaza Strip, wresting control of the territory from the Fatah faction, which controls the Palestinian Authority (PA).
• In that battle, 161 Palestinians were killed and more than 700 were wounded. To make sure that the wounded did not return to the battlefield, Hamas shot dozens of their enemies in the legs and arms at point blank range to ensure permanent disabilities.
• When the dust settled, the Palestinian people were divided. Gaza (1.5 million people) remained in Hamas’ hands, and Fatah clung to the West Bank (2.5 million people).
• Since then, the two largest Palestinian factions – Hamas and Fatah – continue to be at war. They round up their political foes in these two territories. They shut down newspapers. Reports of torture are everywhere.
• Numerous attempts to reconcile the two factions have failed. Egypt, Turkey, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Mauritania have all come up short.
• However, the Palestinian civil war makes peacemaking exceeding difficult. There is not universally-recognized interlocutor on the Palestinian side.
• Today, if Israel ceded all of the West Bank, removed security checkpoints, and gave in to all Palestinian claims on Jerusalem, there would no legitimate Palestinian representative to ratify an agreement.
• The factions have been at odds over ideology since Hamas was founded in 1987. Hamas is an Islamist group, and Fatah is largely secular. The groups challenged each other politically during the 1990s.
• In the aftermath of the “al-Aqsa Intifada” of 2000, the two factions began to fight each other, even as the Palestinians fought a war against Israel.
• When Yassir Arafat died in 2004, a leadership vacuum opened. The Palestinian Authority had already been weakened by war with Israel. Hamas had grown to roughly equal strength with Fatah.
• In January 2006, Palestinians elected Hamas to power. Fatah, with backing from the United States, refused to allow Hamas to govern.
• A stalemate ensued, leading to the aforementioned 2007 civil war in Gaza.
• Currently, two Palestinian mini-states are growing in two different directions. The Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip is funded by Iran and is evolving into a dangerous terrorist state. The Fatah-controlled West Bank enjoys support from the West and Arab states.
• The Palestinians of the West Bank are now mulling a “unilateral declaration of independence.”
•This unilateral move is dangerous because it would effectively solidify the split between the West Bank and Gaza, and possibly permanently divide the Palestinians.
• Similarly, a peace process that does not first solve the Palestinian internecine conflict could permanently divide the Palestinians.


If you can put aside your prejudice momentarily, you might be able to understand the conflict in a bi-partisan fashion.




When elections don't do it, a civil war can happen.

America also had a civil war. It was a tragic event. Brother killing brother.

I don't know all the details of that either. I'm sure there was a lot of torture going on there too.


The south is still bitter about it, and some still wave the confederate flag.


Yes, that is all common knowledge AND a Red Herring. Despite that, my original point stands and it is not merely a rumour as you attempted to dismiss it. The two parties (Hamas and Fatah) were at odds when Hamas took control of the Gaza strip.


A civil war, yes. So your only point then is that the election was not "fair?"

I think you can say that in most elections.

In America, Presidents are bought by the filthy rich. They are installed. They are also not "fair."

We are more civilized.




An irrelevance and a Red Herring. These attempts at obfuscation are quite tedious.


That was your point, was it not??

The elections were not "fair" because they shot the apposition's legs or killed them, or whatever they did.

It was a civil war, so the "election was not fair."

The election of President Lincoln was also not fair because of our civil war then right?




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Sat 11/17/12 06:22 PM
But it would not really have mattered which side won, the winner would have been labeled a bunch of "terrorists" by Israel and not recognized as official leadership.