As we are getting more & more civilised we are becoming more & more self centered and losing sense of humanity. Are we heading towards good?

One could suppose that "becoming more & more self centered and losing sense of humanity' is NOT a sign we are becoming more "civilized, but LESS.

I guess it depends on if you view it as "More civilized" in the first place.

And I'm yet to study a great civilization that hasn't become lost in its own greed and self-centered attitude that hasn't ended, except the United States. All great civilizations fall, it is just a matter of time.

ding ding ding

I Think themore we become 'independent' of each other , the more prime we are to become selfish and, by extension, uncivilized,,,,

I don't know; I think being more independent gives me a better chance of survival. People in general aren't dependable; so I have found its made me stronger being independent. Where some call it selfish; I call it survival.

There are two distinctions:

1. The rights of society.
2. The rights of the individual.

The last fifty years our nation seems to have almost abandoned the rights of society and moved to excess in an individuals rights. I'm not suggesting a reactionary state but a more balanced approach between the good of society vs the individuals rights.

Actually it all started with the Supreme Court during the late fifties into the seventies. One of the justices actually said if he wishes to bend the constitution to his liking he will do so.

I vote for independent.

I think that justice worked on the legal venues to reduce racial hatred and hatred toward visible minorities, and for laws that repelled the legal background for lynching blacks and raping their sisters.

If you are for all that, I can see why you don't like bending the constitution.

I would like to not bend it, but make it rubbery, and make slingshots out if it and replace all guns in private ownership with the slignshots.

Please, please, please, give your definition, of the "good of society".

I can't really conceptualize society as a sentient, able-to-think and judge for quality, and feeling entity that can sense "goodness" or feel the "goodness" of something or anything.

So please take into consideration that I don't know what you mean "good of society", and if you feel like (no pressure, it's up to you) give a definition of what is good of society.

Did you mean "good people in society", when you said "good of society"? "Good people in society" makes sense to me, but "what's good for society" I can't even nearly conceptualize. Or see for what you mean it to be with those eyes of my mind, which eyes are able to see concepts.

I am becoming more and more civilized, and I'm heading toward good.

This much I know. I don't know about the rest of you.

But starting from our birth we are dependent on others.

until our culture teaches us it is weak and shameful,,,,,

I don't get this "independent" thing, either.

What's the big advantage? I can't see that, either.

I can see much more of an advantage of living in a society than being loners, each for his or her own, and slaughering each other for our meat, or raping the daughters of others.

Indepenence... in this sense... of being independent from society, of being independent (except for Sundays, when you show up for services, go into religious ecstasy and eat the yummy cupcakes of the Lady's Rotating Baking Committee, while you drink tea and chat with the Treasurer of the Lawn Maintenance sub-routine)... what does it MEAN?

I think people make way too big of a deal of a person that wants to be independent. Its not a bad thing. Being too dependent on someone can make you needy. We were given brains to have individual thoughts for a reason. Me; I admire a person that is independent as that means the person is open for growth. So, its all in how you perceive independence.

Makes a little more sense, but I could go grow faster if I did it with a loved with whom we were dependent on each other for many things, mainly emotional/spiritual/love things.

I also did a lot of growth with like-minded people when I belonged to a gorup called "humanists of Toronto."

But all that growth would not have been possible if I did not take the pills, which society developed for people like me, with my illness. without those pills I'd be a vagrant, sleeping on the streets and eating out of trashcans.

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For me more dependence is good, but for you, what is the thing that would restrict your freedom to expereince joy and goodness? I think I am not a bad thinker, so when you say you can think independently, that's actually not too convincing, to a lot of degree. You don't need to be dependent or independent to have a brain and use it. You need a brain for that. You got one; who is stopping you from using it, when you are in a "dependent" situation?

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"I guess it depends on how you see "independence"."

I don't like that. Because then it becomes a discussion of what makes independence. I wish you could give me an example of how your life is better with more independence, than with less. That is, how your or someone else's life could be made worse with more dependence in the normal course of life. I don't mean people in wheelchairs or whose limbs are cut off or who are mentally low-functioning, or blind, etc. I mean normal people who can function well in society, have normal intelligence and abilities. How do they benefit from less dependence? How do they suffer from more dependence?

We, each of us, already are incredibly dependent on each other and on society. You wear clothes that others make. Would you prefer to cut this line of dependency, and make your clothes from scratch, from here on, that is, pick cotton, or sheer lambs, etc., and go through all the porcesses?

Or make food? You'd raise cattle, and pigs and chicken, and grow corn and wheat for them and your family and for yourself, and risk any year a bad crop for you all to simply die from starvation, when a heavy rain lays down the standing wheat a week before harvest? Or have your beef get hoof and mouth disease?

Or would you like to give up your dependence on medicare? You would still stay human, with the fallibilities of humans, that is, ability and chance to break bones, get infections, get mad or depressed? Would you rather go around with a broken leg, independent from medicare?

Or would you go independent from police? Have your own guns and your own rules? If someone wants to have sex with your daughter, then shoot him? Well, your sons will be shot in the neighbourhood, too.

Or do you prefer independence in warfare and national defence? Each for his own, with his own gun? You could well defend against the Albanian air force, or against the Hungarian navy, but come even Argentina, let alone Germany or China or Viet Nam, with an organized army, and the little homesteads would all go poof-poof, and the people there be killed.

I really don't know how you mean to be "more independent." Not get sick, and not depend on doctors? by not getting sick??? Or be shut off from the world and not need papers, tv, or computers with internet? I don't know how to build a tv or a computer independently. Do you?

This independency-thing is really rubbing my better judgement the wrong way, and I am baffled at how others can't see that more independence and less interdependence would only hurt everyone. Society's strength is given to it by common goals, which gives it reasons to stick together, division of labour, which give it efficiency, and a system of doling out products in a justifiable but not equitable way, which makes people stay motivated to be a part of society.

All these three elements need dependence and interdependence. What is the problem that people see in the workings of a society, who advocate independence?

That is what I'd like to know.

Sure, sure, nobody wants to depend on police or fire crews or ambulance. But we do, we all do, even if we don't get involved in direct need for them. The bakery could be on fire, and the fire is put out for YOU as much as for the baker, coz you would not be able to buy bread, or at least only for a much higher price. You never called the police? I haven't, either, but I walk on streets sometimes where desparate people come my way, and I know they don't rob me or beat me only because they are afraid of the law, of which police is a part of.

So what the ize is the thing with independence?

An example of independence to me is doing things for myself; like making my own money; fixing my own house, being able to walk away from a relationship without being afraid to be on my own. My mom was dependent on my dad to be the bread winner. He beat the crap out of her; held back money so she and us kids went hungry, and was to afraid to divorce him as she didn't know what to do. This is what I mean by independence. What I meant by using your brain is when you are so dependent on someone that they literally do all the thinking and decision making for you; much like how my mom lived.

For a few examples: I don't rely on medicare to take care of my health; don't even bother with the flue shot because I am proactive and take care of myself. I don't call the Fire Department for a small house fire as I know how to fight a fire; did for many years on ship. I also don't call the ambulance as I found the costs of $250.00 is a tad high and medicare does not pay for it. I would take a taxi as I found out the ambulance does not get you faster through emergency. I also take precautions to keep myself safe so I don't need to call the police by putting myself in a bad situation. I have friends that work as police officers, firefighters, and 911 dispatch. From what they tell me; many hours are wasted on small trifle things that people can take care of themselves. While on this silly calls; they are kept away from real emergencies. So what I mean about being independent really is being more pro-active and preventing situations before they get out of hand. Of course this theory doesn't work for every situation as each situation is unique but overall its worked for me.

As for love; I don't think its a dependency; more its just an emotion. You have to love yourself rather than depending on someone to make you feel loved. I think once that is accomplished; you can share your love. However; this is just my opinion and how I see it. We all see things in a different reality and who is to say what is right and what is wrong.

Most people function best when the are interdependeont

Any tips you have for those, who, like me, have just bought their first scanner/lazer printer?