Topic: Was Noah's flood global or local?
no photo
Tue 07/10/12 05:52 PM
Edited by CeriseRose on Tue 07/10/12 05:53 PM
Question:
"Was Noah's flood global or local?"

Answer:
The biblical passages regarding the flood make it clear that it was global.
Genesis 7:11 states that “all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.”

Genesis 1:6-7 and 2:6 tell us that the pre-flood environment was much different from that which we experience today.

Based on these and other biblical descriptions, it is reasonably speculated that at one time the earth was covered
by some kind of water canopy.
This canopy could have been a vapor canopy, or it might have consisted of rings, somewhat like Saturn's ice rings.

This, in combination with a layer of water underground, released upon the land (Genesis 2:6) would have resulted in a global flood.

The clearest verses that show the extent of the flood are Genesis 7:19-23.

Regarding the waters,
“They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered.
The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet.

Every living thing that moved on the earth perished—birds, livestock, wild animals,
all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind.

Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died.
Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth.
Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.”

In the above passage,
we not only find the word “all” being used repeatedly,
but we also find “all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered,” “the waters rose
and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet,“ and “every living thing
that moved on the earth perished.”

These descriptions clearly describe a universal flood covering the whole earth.

Also,
if the flood was localized, why did God instruct Noah to build an ark instead of merely telling Noah to move
and causing the animals to migrate?
And why did He instruct Noah to build an ark large enough to house all of the different kinds of land animals found on the earth?

If the flood was not global,
there would have been no need for an ark.

Peter also describes the universality of the flood in 2 Peter 3:6-7, where he states,

“By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.

By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.”

In these verses
Peter compares the “universal” coming judgment to the flood of Noah's time and states that the world
that existed then was flooded with water.

Further,
many biblical writers accepted the historicity of the worldwide flood (Isaiah 54:9; 1 Peter 3:20; 2 Peter 2:5; Hebrews 11:7).

Lastly,
the Lord Jesus Christ believed in the universal flood
and took it as the type of the coming destruction of the world when He returns (Matthew 24:37-39; Luke 17:26-27).

There are many extra-biblical evidences
that point to a worldwide catastrophe such as a global flood.

There are vast fossil graveyards found on every continent and large amounts of coal deposits
that would require the rapid covering of vast quantities of vegetation.

Oceanic fossils are found upon mountain tops around the world.
Cultures
in all parts of the world have some form of flood legend.

All of these facts and many others are evidence of a global flood.



http://www.gotquestions.org/global-flood.html



CowboyGH's photo
Tue 07/10/12 07:52 PM

Question:
"Was Noah's flood global or local?"

Answer:
The biblical passages regarding the flood make it clear that it was global.
Genesis 7:11 states that “all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.”

Genesis 1:6-7 and 2:6 tell us that the pre-flood environment was much different from that which we experience today.

Based on these and other biblical descriptions, it is reasonably speculated that at one time the earth was covered
by some kind of water canopy.
This canopy could have been a vapor canopy, or it might have consisted of rings, somewhat like Saturn's ice rings.

This, in combination with a layer of water underground, released upon the land (Genesis 2:6) would have resulted in a global flood.

The clearest verses that show the extent of the flood are Genesis 7:19-23.

Regarding the waters,
“They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered.
The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet.

Every living thing that moved on the earth perished—birds, livestock, wild animals,
all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind.

Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died.
Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth.
Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.”

In the above passage,
we not only find the word “all” being used repeatedly,
but we also find “all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered,” “the waters rose
and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet,“ and “every living thing
that moved on the earth perished.”

These descriptions clearly describe a universal flood covering the whole earth.

Also,
if the flood was localized, why did God instruct Noah to build an ark instead of merely telling Noah to move
and causing the animals to migrate?
And why did He instruct Noah to build an ark large enough to house all of the different kinds of land animals found on the earth?

If the flood was not global,
there would have been no need for an ark.

Peter also describes the universality of the flood in 2 Peter 3:6-7, where he states,

“By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.

By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.”

In these verses
Peter compares the “universal” coming judgment to the flood of Noah's time and states that the world
that existed then was flooded with water.

Further,
many biblical writers accepted the historicity of the worldwide flood (Isaiah 54:9; 1 Peter 3:20; 2 Peter 2:5; Hebrews 11:7).

Lastly,
the Lord Jesus Christ believed in the universal flood
and took it as the type of the coming destruction of the world when He returns (Matthew 24:37-39; Luke 17:26-27).

There are many extra-biblical evidences
that point to a worldwide catastrophe such as a global flood.

There are vast fossil graveyards found on every continent and large amounts of coal deposits
that would require the rapid covering of vast quantities of vegetation.

Oceanic fossils are found upon mountain tops around the world.
Cultures
in all parts of the world have some form of flood legend.

All of these facts and many others are evidence of a global flood.



http://www.gotquestions.org/global-flood.html





Very true, and also keep in mind the face of the Earth changed/altered after the flood in comparison to before it.

no photo
Tue 07/10/12 10:32 PM


Question:
"Was Noah's flood global or local?"

Answer:
The biblical passages regarding the flood make it clear that it was global.
Genesis 7:11 states that “all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.”

Genesis 1:6-7 and 2:6 tell us that the pre-flood environment was much different from that which we experience today.

Based on these and other biblical descriptions, it is reasonably speculated that at one time the earth was covered
by some kind of water canopy.
This canopy could have been a vapor canopy, or it might have consisted of rings, somewhat like Saturn's ice rings.

This, in combination with a layer of water underground, released upon the land (Genesis 2:6) would have resulted in a global flood.

The clearest verses that show the extent of the flood are Genesis 7:19-23.

Regarding the waters,
“They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered.
The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet.

Every living thing that moved on the earth perished—birds, livestock, wild animals,
all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind.

Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died.
Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth.
Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.”

In the above passage,
we not only find the word “all” being used repeatedly,
but we also find “all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered,” “the waters rose
and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet,“ and “every living thing
that moved on the earth perished.”

These descriptions clearly describe a universal flood covering the whole earth.

Also,
if the flood was localized, why did God instruct Noah to build an ark instead of merely telling Noah to move
and causing the animals to migrate?
And why did He instruct Noah to build an ark large enough to house all of the different kinds of land animals found on the earth?

If the flood was not global,
there would have been no need for an ark.

Peter also describes the universality of the flood in 2 Peter 3:6-7, where he states,

“By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.

By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.”

In these verses
Peter compares the “universal” coming judgment to the flood of Noah's time and states that the world
that existed then was flooded with water.

Further,
many biblical writers accepted the historicity of the worldwide flood (Isaiah 54:9; 1 Peter 3:20; 2 Peter 2:5; Hebrews 11:7).

Lastly,
the Lord Jesus Christ believed in the universal flood
and took it as the type of the coming destruction of the world when He returns (Matthew 24:37-39; Luke 17:26-27).

There are many extra-biblical evidences
that point to a worldwide catastrophe such as a global flood.

There are vast fossil graveyards found on every continent and large amounts of coal deposits
that would require the rapid covering of vast quantities of vegetation.

Oceanic fossils are found upon mountain tops around the world.
Cultures
in all parts of the world have some form of flood legend.

All of these facts and many others are evidence of a global flood.



http://www.gotquestions.org/global-flood.html





Very true, and also keep in mind the face of the Earth changed/altered after the flood in comparison to before it.




You're right Cowboy,
we have caves and canyons, animals and insects fossilized while performing their normal activities.

CowboyGH's photo
Wed 07/11/12 06:20 AM
Edited by CowboyGH on Wed 07/11/12 06:21 AM



Question:
"Was Noah's flood global or local?"

Answer:
The biblical passages regarding the flood make it clear that it was global.
Genesis 7:11 states that “all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.”

Genesis 1:6-7 and 2:6 tell us that the pre-flood environment was much different from that which we experience today.

Based on these and other biblical descriptions, it is reasonably speculated that at one time the earth was covered
by some kind of water canopy.
This canopy could have been a vapor canopy, or it might have consisted of rings, somewhat like Saturn's ice rings.

This, in combination with a layer of water underground, released upon the land (Genesis 2:6) would have resulted in a global flood.

The clearest verses that show the extent of the flood are Genesis 7:19-23.

Regarding the waters,
“They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered.
The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet.

Every living thing that moved on the earth perished—birds, livestock, wild animals,
all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind.

Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died.
Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth.
Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.”

In the above passage,
we not only find the word “all” being used repeatedly,
but we also find “all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered,” “the waters rose
and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet,“ and “every living thing
that moved on the earth perished.”

These descriptions clearly describe a universal flood covering the whole earth.

Also,
if the flood was localized, why did God instruct Noah to build an ark instead of merely telling Noah to move
and causing the animals to migrate?
And why did He instruct Noah to build an ark large enough to house all of the different kinds of land animals found on the earth?

If the flood was not global,
there would have been no need for an ark.

Peter also describes the universality of the flood in 2 Peter 3:6-7, where he states,

“By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.

By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.”

In these verses
Peter compares the “universal” coming judgment to the flood of Noah's time and states that the world
that existed then was flooded with water.

Further,
many biblical writers accepted the historicity of the worldwide flood (Isaiah 54:9; 1 Peter 3:20; 2 Peter 2:5; Hebrews 11:7).

Lastly,
the Lord Jesus Christ believed in the universal flood
and took it as the type of the coming destruction of the world when He returns (Matthew 24:37-39; Luke 17:26-27).

There are many extra-biblical evidences
that point to a worldwide catastrophe such as a global flood.

There are vast fossil graveyards found on every continent and large amounts of coal deposits
that would require the rapid covering of vast quantities of vegetation.

Oceanic fossils are found upon mountain tops around the world.
Cultures
in all parts of the world have some form of flood legend.

All of these facts and many others are evidence of a global flood.



http://www.gotquestions.org/global-flood.html





Very true, and also keep in mind the face of the Earth changed/altered after the flood in comparison to before it.




You're right Cowboy,
we have caves and canyons, animals and insects fossilized while performing their normal activities.


Yes, there are fossils of ocean creatures on tops of mountains. Can only be explained through the flood.

*edit* Which you already mentioned lol >.> Lol

no photo
Wed 07/11/12 05:07 PM

So Cerise,
Do your post imply that Psalm 104 is incorrect?


no photo
Wed 07/11/12 06:43 PM


So Cerise,
Do your post imply that Psalm 104 is incorrect?




Peter,
now you know I have full confidence in God's Word...so what is your underlying question?


no photo
Wed 07/11/12 07:15 PM



So Cerise,
Do your post imply that Psalm 104 is incorrect?




Peter,
now you know I have full confidence in God's Word...so what is your underlying question?




Cerise, there is no "underlying" question, what I asked is what I meant.

I thought that since this topic seemed to be a direct response to my posts that you knew exactly what was meant. In case the Spirit of Truth confused my meaning to you, I'll post the relevant verses for you to either acknowledge or deny:

Psalm 104:5-9
King James Version (KJV)

5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.

7 At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.

8 They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them.

9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.

Elihu's photo
Wed 07/11/12 07:35 PM
Hey Peter,

Cerise is not questioning the truth of Psalm 104.

Its your interpretation of it that is faulty.

There is nothing in Psalm 104 that says that the entire Psalm is about creation.

The Psalmist talks of many things in this passage of Scripture.

To be sure, Creation is mentioned, but so are the cedars of Lebanon v16, sailing ships v26, God touching the mountains to make them smoke v32 and the consuming of the wicked from the earth v35.

When the whole Psalm is considered, your taking of verses 5-9 as a 'proof' of your theory simply exposes you as one who is taking Scripture out of the context from which it has its true meaning.

The Psalm actually covers from Creation to the End of the Age and verses 5-9 are references to the Global Flood.

Psalm 104
New King James Version (NKJV)


1 Bless the Lord, O my soul!
O Lord my God, You are very great:
You are clothed with honor and majesty,
2 Who cover Yourself with light as with a garment,
Who stretch out the heavens like a curtain.
3 He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters,
Who makes the clouds His chariot,
Who walks on the wings of the wind,
4 Who makes His angels spirits,
His ministers a flame of fire.
5 You who laid the foundations of the earth,
So that it should not be moved forever,
6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment;
The waters stood above the mountains.
7 At Your rebuke they fled;
At the voice of Your thunder they hastened away.
8 They went up over the mountains;
They went down into the valleys,
To the place which You founded for them.
9 You have set a boundary that they may not pass over,
That they may not return to cover the earth.
10 He sends the springs into the valleys;
They flow among the hills.
11 They give drink to every beast of the field;
The wild donkeys quench their thirst.
12 By them the birds of the heavens have their home;
They sing among the branches.
13 He waters the hills from His upper chambers;
The earth is satisfied with the fruit of Your works.
14 He causes the grass to grow for the cattle,
And vegetation for the service of man,
That he may bring forth food from the earth,
15 And wine that makes glad the heart of man,
Oil to make his face shine,
And bread which strengthens man’s heart.
16 The trees of the Lord are full of sap,
The cedars of Lebanon which He planted,
17 Where the birds make their nests;
The stork has her home in the fir trees.
18 The high hills are for the wild goats;
The cliffs are a refuge for the rock badgers.
19 He appointed the moon for seasons;
The sun knows its going down.
20 You make darkness, and it is night,
In which all the beasts of the forest creep about.
21 The young lions roar after their prey,
And seek their food from God.
22 When the sun rises, they gather together
And lie down in their dens.
23 Man goes out to his work
And to his labor until the evening.
24 O Lord, how manifold are Your works!
In wisdom You have made them all.
The earth is full of Your possessions—
25 This great and wide sea,
In which are innumerable teeming things,
Living things both small and great.
26 There the ships sail about;
There is that Leviathan
Which You have made to play there.
27 These all wait for You,
That You may give them their food in due season.
28 What You give them they gather in;
You open Your hand, they are filled with good.
29 You hide Your face, they are troubled;
You take away their breath, they die and return to their dust.
30 You send forth Your Spirit, they are created;
And You renew the face of the earth.
31 May the glory of the Lord endure forever;
May the Lord rejoice in His works.
32 He looks on the earth, and it trembles;
He touches the hills, and they smoke.
33 I will sing to the Lord as long as I live;
I will sing praise to my God while I have my being.
34 May my meditation be sweet to Him;
I will be glad in the Lord.
35 May sinners be consumed from the earth,
And the wicked be no more.
Bless the Lord, O my soul!
Praise the Lord!

no photo
Wed 07/11/12 07:44 PM

Hey Peter,

Cerise is not questioning the truth of Psalm 104.

Its your interpretation of it that is faulty.

There is nothing in Psalm 104 that says that the entire Psalm is about creation.

The Psalmist talks of many things in this passage of Scripture.

To be sure, Creation is mentioned, but so are the cedars of Lebanon v16, sailing ships v26, God touching the mountains to make them smoke v32 and the consuming of the wicked from the earth v35.

When the whole Psalm is considered, your taking of verses 5-9 as a 'proof' of your theory simply exposes you as one who is taking Scripture out of the context from which it has its true meaning.

The Psalm actually covers from Creation to the End of the Age and verses 5-9 are references to the Global Flood.

Psalm 104
New King James Version (NKJV)


1 Bless the Lord, O my soul!
O Lord my God, You are very great:
You are clothed with honor and majesty,
2 Who cover Yourself with light as with a garment,
Who stretch out the heavens like a curtain.
3 He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters,
Who makes the clouds His chariot,
Who walks on the wings of the wind,
4 Who makes His angels spirits,
His ministers a flame of fire.
5 You who laid the foundations of the earth,
So that it should not be moved forever,
6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment;
The waters stood above the mountains.
7 At Your rebuke they fled;
At the voice of Your thunder they hastened away.
8 They went up over the mountains;
They went down into the valleys,
To the place which You founded for them.
9 You have set a boundary that they may not pass over,
That they may not return to cover the earth.
10 He sends the springs into the valleys;
They flow among the hills.
11 They give drink to every beast of the field;
The wild donkeys quench their thirst.
12 By them the birds of the heavens have their home;
They sing among the branches.
13 He waters the hills from His upper chambers;
The earth is satisfied with the fruit of Your works.
14 He causes the grass to grow for the cattle,
And vegetation for the service of man,
That he may bring forth food from the earth,
15 And wine that makes glad the heart of man,
Oil to make his face shine,
And bread which strengthens man’s heart.
16 The trees of the Lord are full of sap,
The cedars of Lebanon which He planted,
17 Where the birds make their nests;
The stork has her home in the fir trees.
18 The high hills are for the wild goats;
The cliffs are a refuge for the rock badgers.
19 He appointed the moon for seasons;
The sun knows its going down.
20 You make darkness, and it is night,
In which all the beasts of the forest creep about.
21 The young lions roar after their prey,
And seek their food from God.
22 When the sun rises, they gather together
And lie down in their dens.
23 Man goes out to his work
And to his labor until the evening.
24 O Lord, how manifold are Your works!
In wisdom You have made them all.
The earth is full of Your possessions—
25 This great and wide sea,
In which are innumerable teeming things,
Living things both small and great.
26 There the ships sail about;
There is that Leviathan
Which You have made to play there.
27 These all wait for You,
That You may give them their food in due season.
28 What You give them they gather in;
You open Your hand, they are filled with good.
29 You hide Your face, they are troubled;
You take away their breath, they die and return to their dust.
30 You send forth Your Spirit, they are created;
And You renew the face of the earth.
31 May the glory of the Lord endure forever;
May the Lord rejoice in His works.
32 He looks on the earth, and it trembles;
He touches the hills, and they smoke.
33 I will sing to the Lord as long as I live;
I will sing praise to my God while I have my being.
34 May my meditation be sweet to Him;
I will be glad in the Lord.
35 May sinners be consumed from the earth,
And the wicked be no more.
Bless the Lord, O my soul!
Praise the Lord!


"Beware of private interpretations of the Word. When it has a plain meaning, don't go beyond it and you will find yourself being taught by God and not by man."

You should learn to heed your own advice...



no photo
Wed 07/11/12 07:48 PM




So Cerise,
Do your post imply that Psalm 104 is incorrect?




Peter,
now you know I have full confidence in God's Word...so what is your underlying question?




Cerise, there is no "underlying" question, what I asked is what I meant.

I thought that since this topic seemed to be a direct response to my posts that you knew exactly what was meant. In case the Spirit of Truth confused my meaning to you, I'll post the relevant verses for you to either acknowledge or deny:

Psalm 104:5-9
King James Version (KJV)

5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.

7 At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.

8 They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them.

9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.



Peter,
I don't enjoy playing this unsociable guessing game with you.
I'm uncomfortable with your approach.
I have no idea what you are trying to prove or disprove.

Come down from your horse and take off your battle gear.

I have no intentions of fighting nor debating with you.

And if you want to talk, the line is open to you.




oldhippie1952's photo
Wed 07/11/12 08:21 PM
I always thought it was world-wide.

Plus they have found evidence of a big flood in the strata of rocks in North America.

no photo
Wed 07/11/12 09:18 PM
Edited by CeriseRose on Wed 07/11/12 09:19 PM
God's Word is TRUE and He has a purpose for all He does.


1, A Psalm of David.
"The earth is the LORD'S,
and the fulness thereof;
the world, and they that dwell therein.

2, For he hath founded it upon the seas,
and established it upon the floods."

Psalm 1:1&2

no photo
Wed 07/11/12 09:23 PM

I always thought it was world-wide.

Plus they have found evidence of a big flood in the strata of rocks in North America.


Oldhippie1952, I believe you were always right!flowerforyou

Elihu's photo
Wed 07/11/12 10:50 PM
Yes global flood evidence everywhere, in China and in Russia and in Africa and in Australia and even in little ole New Zealand... and of course, in the Word of God

C'mon Peter Pan, get away from those fairy tales.

no photo
Wed 07/11/12 11:16 PM
Edited by Peter_Pan69 on Wed 07/11/12 11:18 PM

Yes global flood evidence everywhere, in China and in Russia and in Africa and in Australia and even in little ole New Zealand... and of course, in the Word of God

C'mon Peter Pan, get away from those fairy tales.


Which fairy tales?

The one that tells me to seek the truth? The one that tells me to prove all things? Perhaps you want me to ignore the one that instructs me to discern the truth and reject myths? Perhaps you wish for me to ignore the wise words that tell me to use my mind?


Matthew 22:36-38
New International Version (NIV)

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment.



Mark 12:29-31
New International Version (NIV)

29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”


Luke 10:25-28
New International Version (NIV)

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”



Isaiah 5:20-21
New International Version (NIV)

20 Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter.
21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
and clever in their own sight.


C'mon Elihu, get away from those pagan doctrines of men...


Jeremiah 8:8
New International Version (NIV)

8 “‘How can you say, “We are wise,
for we have the law of the Lord,”
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?