Topic: RF disorder - should it be studied?
no photo
Fri 01/20/12 08:03 PM

The "substance" of you post is entirely dependant on your gratuitous assertion....


Which is???

huh


As it pertains to Christians, the assertion that Christians use "faith-based thinking" rather than traditional reasoning. This is clearly not true as evidenced by the large number of Christian scientists, including many who were ground breaking in their fields. Also by the story of the Bereans and how Christians are to use them as an example. And by simple human psychology, which causes people to questions their beliefs. I've heard many ministers admit to occasional doubts, no matter how long they have been in the faith.

Your entire argument is that the actions of a few misguided or insane people is indicative of the general mindset of religion. Everything you have argued hinges on the assumption that people of faith use "faith-based" thinking and in the case of Christians at least, that is simply not true.

creativesoul's photo
Fri 01/20/12 08:06 PM
Spider,

Offering examples of members of faith who have turned to evidence and reason to establish their beliefs when those beliefs conflict with the book does not deny the effects/affects of faith-based thinking. Those are exceptions. Those are not the kind of people in question. I've never claimed that all people of faith have unshakable conviction. A careful reader will note that.

The existence of some people of faith who have chosen to side with more scientific evidence is progress well made, however it does not deny the continued existence of the extremists who hold to what the Bible says in spite of evidence.


creativesoul's photo
Fri 01/20/12 08:09 PM


The "substance" of you post is entirely dependant on your gratuitous assertion....


Which is???

huh


As it pertains to Christians, the assertion that Christians use "faith-based thinking" rather than traditional reasoning.


I never asserted that. Sorry.

no photo
Fri 01/20/12 08:13 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/video/2007/dec/09/video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1hFW_z75IRo

... The above videos are about the unfathomable human abuses, even to toddlers, that have developed in Africa due to the direct affiliation with and influence from the religious bigotry that is passed on to cultures who have little understanding of the history of Western civilization or little to no education regarding the modern world.

In other parts of Africa, Western evangelical missionaries who left their own countries as defeated soldiers in their anti-gay war, have taken their religious extremism as propaganda to the political arena of governments who are struggling between values of human rights and religious moral code that was left to them from the Western colonialism of 100 year ago.

The behaviors noted are ATROCITIES and they are not, strictly speaking, totally the fault of those perpetrating physical harm and mental abuse, for such things have been taught to these people as part of a religion.

Over one hundred years since Western colonialism in Africa and this is what has progressed through religious extremism originally developed by governments to rally support for the colonization effort.

One piece of propaganda certainly took hold and it seems obvious that the "White man's burden" is still a dominating force in the call of the evangelical missionaries to Africa.
Bringing Western religious extremism with its Western bigotry into theologically colonized third world communities and countries seems to make those who cannot force their religious morals into the laws of modern thinking countries feel like they are accomplishing their (un)godly mission after all.

What most of those evangelical missionaries have done should be considered a crime no less worthy of the world’s distain than the crimes of Hitler and Stalin, or more currently the Sudanese government & Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir for allowing ethnic cleansing to continue in Sudan.

In my opinion, every country should put a ban on religious missionary visa's and it should be a crime for any religious person from one country to go to another for the purpose of spreading their gospel to the political elite or social elite of that country.
This is how the ‘disorder’ of ‘Religious Fundamentalism’ spreads throughout the world. This is another reason why it needs to be explored. The suicide bombers are another example of religious extremism.

Check out this link:

http://www.atheistmedia.com/2010/05/sharmeen-obaid-chinoy-inside-school-for.html
WEDNESDAY, MAY 26, 2010
Inside A School For Suicide Bombers | TED2010


And by the way: I do not suggest that missions of mercy be abandoned? Absolutely not, but let those who have a religious conviction leave it behind when they choose to put their merciful altruistic foot forward.



Children in Congo forced into exorcisms

The pastors who conduct such rituals are non-denominational, and most have no theological training, says Matondo Kasese of the humanitarian group Reejer.


Those are local scam artists, not Christian Missionaries.

Get that crap out of here!


no photo
Fri 01/20/12 08:14 PM



The "substance" of you post is entirely dependant on your gratuitous assertion....


Which is???

huh


As it pertains to Christians, the assertion that Christians use "faith-based thinking" rather than traditional reasoning.


I never asserted that. Sorry.


laugh

Oh geeze. Okay. I guess you changed your mind between making this post and the one right before it.

creativesoul's photo
Fri 01/20/12 08:36 PM


That is NOT an example of begging the question.


Absolutely it is! I stated that people will gravitate to the side with the best reasoning and he said (essentially) that "No they won't agree with the non-faith side, because they are brain washed." In other words, if they go to the non-faith side, it's because they are thinking and if they don't go to the non-faith side, it's because they are brain washed. Either way, his assumption is that the non-faith side is right. This is begging the question.


That is not begging the question spider. If it were, stating anything at all during a debate would be begging the question, assuming honest testimony. We all think that our beliefs are true and when they conflict with anothers, as in if one is the negation of the other, then we all think that the others' is wrong.

I suggest you brush up a little on your knowledge of fallacy.

no photo
Fri 01/20/12 08:40 PM
Creative said this:

Having faith is completely trusting in the truthfulness of a source. It is having no doubt that the source is truthful.


Really?

I don't think faith is simply a matter of trust in the truthfulness of a source.

I have perfect faith in what is, but not much faith in any particular individual source.

creativesoul's photo
Fri 01/20/12 08:41 PM




The "substance" of you post is entirely dependant on your gratuitous assertion....


Which is???

huh


As it pertains to Christians, the assertion that Christians use "faith-based thinking" rather than traditional reasoning.


I never asserted that. Sorry.


laugh

Oh geeze. Okay. I guess you changed your mind between making this post and the one right before it.


Show me.

creativesoul's photo
Fri 01/20/12 08:42 PM

Creative said this:

Having faith is completely trusting in the truthfulness of a source. It is having no doubt that the source is truthful.


Really?

I don't think faith is simply a matter of trust in the truthfulness of a source.

I have perfect faith in what is, but not much faith in any particular individual source.


Not in the your own ability to understand the way things are?

no photo
Fri 01/20/12 08:45 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Fri 01/20/12 08:46 PM


Creative said this:

Having faith is completely trusting in the truthfulness of a source. It is having no doubt that the source is truthful.


Really?

I don't think faith is simply a matter of trust in the truthfulness of a source.

I have perfect faith in what is, but not much faith in any particular individual source.


Not in the your own ability to understand the way things are?



It has nothing to do with me or my ability.
I don't claim to understand "the way things are."

In fact, I do not know truth or understand it.
I simply have faith in it.

In what is.


creativesoul's photo
Fri 01/20/12 08:48 PM
Have faith in what... truth?

no photo
Fri 01/20/12 08:50 PM

Have faith in what... truth?


Yes.

I have faith in truth.

I have faith in WHAT IS.

creativesoul's photo
Fri 01/20/12 08:51 PM
I would think that by and in large JB, you have a relatively good grasp of the way things are.

no photo
Fri 01/20/12 08:53 PM

I would think that by and in large JB, you have a relatively good grasp of the way things are.


Everything is relative.

I don't know the truth of what is.

But it seems to be working quite well. tongue2 bigsmile


no photo
Fri 01/20/12 09:05 PM



That is NOT an example of begging the question.


Absolutely it is! I stated that people will gravitate to the side with the best reasoning and he said (essentially) that "No they won't agree with the non-faith side, because they are brain washed." In other words, if they go to the non-faith side, it's because they are thinking and if they don't go to the non-faith side, it's because they are brain washed. Either way, his assumption is that the non-faith side is right. This is begging the question.


That is not begging the question spider. If it were, stating anything at all during a debate would be begging the question, assuming honest testimony. We all think that our beliefs are true and when they conflict with anothers, as in if one is the negation of the other, then we all think that the others' is wrong.

I suggest you brush up a little on your knowledge of fallacy.


creativesoul,

I'm going to explain this again, but this is the last time.

I said "if the evidence supports you, people will move to your side of the aisle."

Bushidobillyclub argued against this (with a Begging the question fallacy) by saying "...this is the problem with faith based thinking, it trumps reasoned debate. No objective criteria required."

If people agree with his position, it's because he is right.
-OR-
If people disagree with his position, it's because they are wrong.

He's rejecting the idea that people will choose the side that has the best evidence, because he's always right and not everyone agrees with him.

It's a non-falsifiable position. It's circular reasoning.


creativesoul's photo
Fri 01/20/12 09:31 PM
Edited by creativesoul on Fri 01/20/12 09:35 PM
As I've already said spider, everyone is not moved equally by equal evidence. Thus, just because the evidence supports one position or the other, it does not mean that "people will move to your side of the aisle."

You're the one who is affirming the consequent. The continued existence of religious fundamental extremists who deny scientific evidence simply because is conflicts with the Bible clearly show that your claim is false.

no photo
Fri 01/20/12 09:41 PM

As I've already said spider, everyone is not moved equally by equal evidence. Thus, just because the evidence supports one position or the other, it does not mean that "people will move to your side of the aisle."


So you underestimate the majority of people, just so you can congratulate yourself for being intellectually superior to them?


You're the one who is affirming the consequent.


No, I'm not. Don't be silly.


The continued existence of religious fundamental extremists who deny scientific evidence simply because is conflicts with the Bible clearly show that your claim is false.


It's a small minority. A small minority of people who hold extreme positions doesn't mean that people of faith don't think.

creativesoul's photo
Fri 01/20/12 09:48 PM
I rest my case.

bigsmile

no photo
Fri 01/20/12 10:16 PM

I rest my case.

bigsmile



You haven't presented a case...


At best it may have been considered an opening statement.
Full of false assertions and opinions with no supporting evidence.


Sooooo, what's your plea? No Contest???



:banana: (<<<<my victory emoticon)




no photo
Sat 01/21/12 10:37 AM
Religious and spiritual objections to Materialism. (Wiki)

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, materialism denies the existence of both deities and "souls."

It is therefore incompatible with most world religions including Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

In most of Hinduism and Transcendentalism, all matter is believed to be an illusion called Maya, blinding us from knowing the truth. Maya is the limited, purely physical and mental reality in which our everyday consciousness has become entangled.

Maya gets destroyed for a person when they perceive Brahman with transcendental knowledge.