Yeh but will someone have to build another billion dollar CERN facility to do it? If so, is that likely?

if they knew what they were doing it wouldnt be called research

the most exciting words to hear in research is "why did it do THAT?"

Hey Robin! Good to see you online. Hope you are doing well.

Classic! Good story.

Several scientists have found minor variations on Poincare's E=Mc2 over the years, and there are phenomena which it fails to predict or explain. I think it's only a matter of time before it's superceded but as is usual in physics it is likely to be correct as a first order calculation, just like Newton's laws of gravity were superceded by Poincare.

As long as everything in this space time reality works as we expect for the most part, I'm not going to worry.

Whenever there is a possibility that some physicists might be out of
work because of some downturn in military funding or layoffs at the state colleges then they have to manufacture some kind of neutrino controversy which throws some famous theory into doubt but will require a couple hundred man years at least to try to investigate by trying to measure the properties of the nearly massless, uncharged and weakly-interacting neutrinos.



The economy is down now so the physicists are really getting desperate.
But if they play their cards right this will mean thousands of physics
jobs will be saved investigating how such an erroneous result was obtained.

If they don't blow it - could go on for a decade or two...What a racket!

I'm betting it is just a calibration error of some sort.

Mee 2

I agree. Unless some other laboratory not connected with CERN starts coming up with the same thing, I wouldn't worry about it.

Approximately three hours before the visible light from SN 1987A reached the Earth, a burst of neutrinos was observed at three separate neutrino observatories. This is likely due to neutrino emission (which occurs simultaneously with core collapse) preceding the emission of visible light (which occurs only after the shock wave reaches the stellar surface). [9] At 7:35 a.m. Universal time, Kamiokande II detected 11 antineutrinos, IMB 8 antineutrinos and Baksan 5 antineutrinos, in a burst lasting less than 13 seconds.

=-=-=-=

SN1987A, A Retrospective Analysis Regarding Neutrino Speed

In 1987 the physics community was surprised by a fortuitous supernova. The light from the supernova reached Earth on February 23, 1987, and as it was the year’s first supernova, it was designated SN1987A. The parent star was located approximately 168,000 light-years away, in the Large Magellanic Cloud, which is the Milky Way’s companion dwarf galaxy. It became visible to the naked eye in Earth’s southern hemisphere.

In this observation, a star core collapsed and released a lot of energy. Most of the excess energy is predicted in theory to be radiated away in a ‘cooling phase’ massive burst of neutrinos/anti-neutrinos formed from pair-production (80-90% of the energy release) and these neutrinos would be of all 3 flavors, both neutrinos and anti-neutrinos, while some 10-20% of the energy is released as accretion phase neutrinos via reactions of electrons plus protons forming neutrons plus neutrinos, or positrons plus neutrons forming protons plus neutrinos (1 flavor, neutrino and anti-neutrino). The observations are also consistent with the models' estimates of a total neutrino count of 10^58 with a total energy of 10^46 joules.

Approximately three hours before the visible light from SN 1987A reached the Earth, a burst of neutrinos was observed at those three separate neutrino observatories. This is due to neutrino emission (which occurs simultaneously with core collapse) preceding the emission of visible light (which occurs only after the shock wave reaches the stellar surface). At 7:35 a.m. Universal time, Kamiokande II detected 11 antineutrinos, IMB 8 antineutrinos and Baksan 5 antineutrinos, in a burst lasting less than 13 seconds.

In this respect, a point that deserves to be stressed is that all 3 detectors observed a relatively large number of events in the first one second of data-taking, about 40% of the total counts (6 events in Kamiokande-II, 3 events in IMB and 2 events in Baksan), while the remaining 60% were spread out over the course of the next 12 seconds.

In other words, these neutrinos travelled a total distance of 5.3 X 10^12 light seconds (168,000 light years), with almost half originating at roughly the same time (within about a 1 second burst of neutrino emission), and all arrived at earth (the light-transit time of earth's diameter is << 1 second and is not a factor due to the spacing of the detectors) within about 1 second of each other. In other words, they all travelled at close to the same speed to within nearly 13 orders of magnitude (5.3 X 10^12 seconds/1 second), far greater than any other measurement precision ever made for the speed of light. And, they all travelled at very close to the speed of light (travelling the same distance as the photons that reached Earth 3 hours later) at a speed consistent to c to within about 1 part per 500 million).

One would expect that since the neutrinos are emitted with potentially a range of energies, that their transit time would have exhibited a range of speeds (all in the 0.9999+ c speed range) if they were sub-luminal particles. While it has been believed that because the total ‘rest-energy’ of a neutrino is on the order of a few eV, while the rest-mass of an electron is about 511 KeV, neutrinos would all travel at close to c if they have mass and high-energy. But the energy they carry is sufficient to bring their speed to near c to only about .999999+ c if they are mass-particles, and the range in energies from pair-production should produce a spread in those speeds, albeit at many significant figures beyond the first few 9s. The calculated energy is indeed high, but not infinite. But that is not what was observed. They were observed to have all travelled at the same speed to 13 significant figures. In other words, had they had slight variations in their speed all slightly less than c, they would have had a large spread in the arrival time at Earth, on the order of days to years. The actual observation is far more consistent with neutrinos as having zero rest mass, and traveling at c, and appears wholly inconsistent with having a rest-mass and ejected with a spectrum of varying energies.

=-=-=



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova_1987A

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=110170

Yes indeed.

Particles with mass move slower then light.

Particles with no mass CAN move at light speed with deviation being subliminal.

It is theorized that some particles are capable of going faster than the speed of light, but that they have an inverse relationship to the speed of light: Tachyons. However they cannot go slower then the speed of light due to the nature of that relationship (which is dependent on us knowing what we know about relativity.)

Particles cannot both have mass, and not have mass.

Thus based on a lot of solid research no one believes neutrinos are both massive, and mass-less, are both moving slower than and faster than the speed of light.

It would throw into question our very understandings and countless experiments and the findings of those experiments based on a single groups experiments on a piece of equipment that has been notorious for its flaws in the last couple of years. Its a new piece of equipment and the largest and really first of its kind, thus I think the community holds these findings with GREAT skepticism for many good reasons.

Perhaps it behaves like the photon.

and a single machine is like looking at a 2 slit experiment from only one slit.

The pattern then becomes a meaningless item. (we changed it by looking - it became a pattern because we looked) and we can not see it clearly cause we only looked with one eye.

I think you have pirated this theory.

No clue, I use to keep up pretty well when I was in school, been too busy, mind tossing good old bushie a clue?

hehe

A point was just made that, due to a difference in gravity, the atomic clocks at CERN and at the underground Italian lab run at different rates.

I am over the moon...so excited.

The Chinese claim that they measured a neutrino going faster than the speed of light ten years ago.

From Wiki:

Ten years before OPERA experiment, measurements about a Faster than light neutrino were found in China by several scientists[69][70][70] and among them actually Guang-Jiong Ni which is the first to claim to prove the going beyond of speed of light by this particle. He based most of his career on this study [71][72][73]. Other American researchers, among whom J.N. Pecina-Cruz[74] this case had considered, but on the purely theoretical level, while Guang-Jiong Ni hears at the time bringing it "experimental" evidence of going beyond of speed of light by neutrino S [75].

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