Today we are witnessing the final breaths of the dragon of orthodox Christianity. The religion is being "attacked" on two fronts.

1. The External Front

The rejection of the religion by secular non-believers of the foundational claims of the so-called "Holy" scriptures/fables.

2. The Internal Front

The rejection of orthodox fundamentalism by believers of the scriptures who are not prepared to support literal fundamental interpretations of the scriptures. And therefore they are no longer interested in supporting evangelism, especially if it takes a fundamentalists approach.

These believers who are not prepared to support strict literal interpretations of scriptures still cling to the basic overall idea of a God who loves them and sent his son to save them from his wrath. But they have become increasingly liberal in their interpretations of the scriptures. Embracing many things that fundamental orthodox Christianity will not tolerate, such as gay rights, or even a belief that non-Christians can be 'saved' without having acknowledged that Jesus is "The Christ".

These liberal Christians who reject orthodox fundamentalism are actually a far greater cause of the demise of the orthodox religion. Then tend to reject the Church's Authority as "The Body of Christ", and instead proclaim a "Personal Walk with God".

They see this new abstraction of a collection of liberal individual who all have a "Personal Walk with God" as being the New Age "Body of Christ".

From their point of view, being a "Christian" has nothing to do with supporting a fundamentalists interpretations of dogma, but instead it is to live in the spirit of "The Christ" (or the teachings of Jesus). So they are basically accepting the Gospels of Jesus only and rejecting all the rest. And they are even taking the Gospels of Jesus very abstractly and not in an overtly literal manner.

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So orthodox Christianity is falling apart from within, (and has been for quite some time) as well as being challenged intensely from the external secularists.

Tony Blair recently spoke to this issue when he said in an interview that he agreed with church leaders that Christianity is in danger of being viewed as a "personal eccentricity" rather than a significant influence on the nation.

http://www.charismamag.com/index.php/news/19959

This view of Christianity as being a "personal eccentricity" is actually being supported by the liberal Christians who proclaim to have a "Personal Walk with God" as opposed to blinding following the strict dogmatic fundamentalists interpretations of scriptures held by many Churches.

There is indeed a very fine line between the concepts of:

"A Personal Walk with God" and "A Personal Eccentricity".

Either view takes what used to be an orthodox fundamentalist authority of the Church and reduces it to nothing more than a personal belief of an individual.

So this is the basis of the "Internal Attack" or "Internal Deterioration" of orthodox Christianity.

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On the External Front the secularist are arguing with increasing scientific evidence that the claims of the Christian dogma simply cannot be true.

There can be no question that the entire Christian faith rests upon a belief in Adam and Eve as the two individuals who were responsible for the beginnings of mankind.

Yet, the scientific knowledge of genetics simply does not permit such beginnings for the human species. It simply isn't genetically possible for all of humanity to have begun from only two fully formed human beings. The evidence that we have evolved from a larger pool of primates is overwhelming.

Yet, in the Christian picture Adam and Eve are of paramount importance because they give rise to the "Fall from Grace" of humanity. Without that fall from grace Christianity has no basis for their proclaimed need for redemption.

Even taking genetics and evolution out of the picture altogether, the Christian story still cannot be supported, because other scientific evidence clearly shows that death, disease, thorns on plants, and all manner of imperfections had always existed long before mankind ever appeared on the planet.

So it's not even a matter of evolution and genetics. The very claim that mankind's "Fall from Grace" was responsible for the "evils" of the world simply cannot be supported in any case.

And thus the dire need for mankind to find redemption in Jesus' name cannot be justified either.

So the secularists are indeed pressing hard for Christianity to be proclaimed as nothing more than a "Personal Eccentricity" that has no rational basis in any secular knowledge.

Thus the secularists are welcoming the liberal ideal of "A Personal Walk with God" over orthodox fundamentalism.

"A Personal Walk with God", is far easier to recognize as nothing more than a "Personal Eccentricity".

The notion of a "Personal Walk with God" cannot be used to support teaching creationism in schools for example. That would be asking the school systems to be teaching people to have a "Personal Walk with God", which would be ludicrous.

The same thing goes for arguing against Gay Rights. The notion of a "Personal Walk with God" cannot be used to support that anyone else should be forced to take that view.

So orthodox Christianity is being refuted both from without and from within. It is simultaneously being challenged by secularist and being rejected by it's own followers in terms of the orthodox fundamentalist approach of an authoritarian Church.

Just my thoughts.

All comments are welcome as usual.

Just makes us stronger as in

Gen 1:1 - Matt 13:23

"Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word , immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word , and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word , and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."
NKJV

Matt 24:4-13
Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Messiah; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you : and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV


Todays news

Miles,

So in other words you're saying that your personal eccentricity is to believe that not only deliberate disobedience of God constitutes 'sin', but even a simply misunderstanding of the scriptures, or having been deceived by preachers who proclaim to know what the scriptures mean also constitutes a condition of 'sin' and is grounds for casting a person into the state of eternal damnation of everlasting punishment?

But by your very on interpretations here, how or why should anyone believe your views?

Perhaps it is your views that are a gross misunderstanding of these scriptures. Perhaps you are one of those that deceive people by teaching them misunderstandings of the scriptures?

All you are basically telling people is that they can't TRUST anyone to have the word of God correct. And that would certainly include trusting YOU.

Moreover you have quoted from the scriptures the following:

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Messiah; and shall deceive many.

Where has anyone came claiming to be the Messiah?

Other than a few individual fruitcakes who actually got that idea from these very fables we haven't seen any major figure who has claimed to be the Messiah of these stories.

In fact, it's highly questionable whether this man named Jesus or Yashua ever actually claimed to be "The Messiah". All we have are second-hand rumors that he might have vaguely implied that this might be the case.

In fact, doesn't the story go that his disciples told him that there are rumors that he was the Messiah, and Jesus asked them, "What do you think" and they said, "We think you are", and Jesus replied, "Well don't tell anyone that until I'm dead and gone".

In other words, Jesus was saying that he wanted no parts of any such rumors.

~~~~~

In any case, in order for me to accept your personal eccentricity I must believe that our creator will not only allow people to misunderstand his instructions to them, and be deceived about them by others, but he will also condemn those people to eternal damnation simply because they have misunderstood something or because they had been deceived.

My personal eccentricity is to reply to you that it is my heartfelt conviction that any creator who would be so insensitive about people's sincerity that he would condemn those who merely misunderstand, or who have been deceived by others, would be far from righteous.

Such a creator would be a totally insensitive jerk, IMHO.

The creator can't go around blaming people for misunderstanding things, especially considering the fact that the Abrahamic religions themselves represent nothing more than a collection of extremely vague translated and transcribed scriptures that even the most sincere devoted believers can't agree what they mean.

In short, even many of the most devoted believers would necessarily have grossly misunderstood interpretations of these scriptures.

The Jews, the Muslims, the Catholics, and the myriad of Protestants who have protested against Catholicism in favor of worshiping their own personal eccentricities and interpretations of scriptures all have a different take on what these things say.

So the vast majority of humans would be cast into a state of eternal damnation and everlasting punishment simply because they have misunderstood something.

And I'm supposed to believe that on PURE FAITH?

It'd rather have PURE FAITH that it's all rubbish, to be perfectly honest with you.

That's my personal eccentricity.

I think Tony Blair is a paedophile.

Tony Blair's Protection of Elite Paedophile Rings Spells the End For His Career.

http://www.propagandamatrix.com/blair_protection.html

There are accusations that he was blackmailed into supporting America's invasion of Iraq.

The Tony Blair Foundation is a non profit entity with a very vague mission. "... to promote understanding among the major religions and increase awareness of the role of faith in the modern world, according to its Web site."

It's probably a paedophile network.

How many do you actually see being sent to eternal bliss.. total destruction. the fiery hell torment is an antient pagan thought that even the Pharoahs believed in. but torment forever is not for the flesh and blood.. sow me if u can.. Blessings..Miles

I just go by what the fables say Miles.

These fables have Jesus proclaiming that the path is straight and the gate is narrow that leads to the Kingdom of God and eternal life, and only FEW will make it.

Well, if only FEW will make it, that leaves the vast majority not making it.

It doesn't take differential calculus to figure that one one.

So this is Jesus' proclamation according to the fable.

Jesus also says that those who do not make it into eternal life will be sent into everlasting punishment.

So if Jesus is a man of his WORD, and the Bible is the WORD of Jesus and we are supposed to believe the WORD, then the WORD proclaims that the vast majority of people will be condemned into a state of everlasting punishment.

So I'm just going by what the fables claim Miles.

If the fables are false then I'm not surprised.

I figured that they were fables all along anyway.

If only a few will make it, then why not try your best to be one of the one's whom does? Witnessing to others in hopes to give them the opportunity to share in the joy? Why just give up something because it will be hard?

Witness what?

The religious bigotry being spread in the name of Jesus as "The Christ" by a culture that had no better moral values than the Tailaban.

No thank you Cowboy.

I would far rather tell people that I believe that Jesus was a misunderstood Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva who actually tried to teach FAR BETTER MORALS than had been taught in the Torah.

And that he was crucified for his views and efforts, and he was never any "sacrificial lamb" of some sick demented God that is appeased by blood sacrifices. Jesus taught against that kind of sick perverted immorality.

Then rumors emerge after his crucifixion that he was "The Christ". And the same Scribes and Pharisees that had Jesus nailed to the pole turned those rumors into the scam of the New Testament to support the very bigotry and religious hatred that Jesus himself had renounced.

You worship the enemies of Jesus. And you hold up their hateful rhetoric.

I recognize that Jesus was a victim of the whole godforsaken thing.

First they nailed him to the Cross, and then they nailed him to the Torah as the "Sacrificial Lamb of Yahweh" to support the very teachings that Jesus himself worked so hard to renounce.

Besides, do you really want any parts of a God who shoots craps with human souls Cowboy?

The whole biblical picture of God is a picture of a creator who shoots craps with human souls and LOSES far more souls than he creates.

Try a pantheistic view of God for a change. That is a picture of a God who never loses a single solitary soul.

Not one soul is lost. Ever.

If you want to talk about a "Perfect Creator" Cowboy it doesn't get any better than that. There can be no greater perfection than a creator who never loses a single solitary soul. There can be no greater unconditional love.

All of the highest ideals that you seek are in Pantheism.

All the things that you claim to hate, are in the Abrahamic picture of God.

Wake up and realize that Jesus was a victim of a culture that was no better than the Taliaban.

No decent righteous God would have his son nailed to a pole to appease himself so that he could forgive the sins of men. And then expect people to actually condone this kind of sickness on their behalf lest he casts them into eternal damnation.

Talk about something that is utterly sick and perverted Cowboy.

There is nothing divine or righteous in that picture at all.

It can't be "godly" it's far too sick and demented.

Why do you keep supporting such a sick demented picture of a God?

It can only be because you have become convinced that this is the only way that you can personally be saved from the eternal damnation yourself.

It's got to be either fear-driven. Or lust-driven in the hopes that you'll hit the Spiritual Lottery and appease this God enough to obtain the gift of eternal life that he supposedly offers.

I guess as long as you lack faith that there actually exists a truly divine and righteous God you'll continue to cling to this picture of a God who casts most of his created souls into eternal damnation.

~~~~~

And evidently even you don't want to believe in the eternal damnation part of it. You want to make it into something a little bit "nicer" where you either just win the eternal life or you don't, but God isn't going to actually harm you if you fail to qualify for the gift of eternal life.

Or maybe you are so convinced that you're holding a WINNING TICKET already you don't really need to concern yourself about what might happen to a loser if this picture of God is real.

I don't know if you remember the forum member called "Smiles" from some time ago. But he used to say, that he'll be glad to go to this God's heaven, but only if he's the LAST ONE to enter.

In other words, if anyone is going to hell, he's going with them as a matter of principle and protests.

I would feel the same way if this biblical picture of God were true.

I would become a TRUE PROTESTANT and protest against this God directly!

I have no interest in any hellish heaven that would be nothing more than an exclusive club reserved only for those people who were selfish enough to condone having Jesus butchered on a pole to pay for their sins.

I'd rather go to hell and damnation.

Spreading hateful lies again. I worship God the father through Jesus Christ. I worship no doctrine, I worship no other being but God the father.

Please keep the discussions on topic and not personally attack people's beliefs, please.

Christianity has nothing to offer but doctrine.

It is necessarily a belief in doctrine.

If it weren't for the doctrine there would be nothing to believe.

It's nothing more than a belief that a specific canonized doctrine is the "Word of God".

That's what it is.

In fact, there are different versions of the doctrine and if you believe in a slightly different version of the doctrine then you would believe in Judaism or Islam, etc.

For someone who claims to not worship a doctrine you sure do post excerpts from the doctrine often enough, and you act as though the doctrine itself should be accepted as the verbatim perfect infallible "Word of God".

That certainly looks to me like someone worshiping a doctrine as the verbatim word of a God.

In fact, most Christians I know confess that their religion is indeed a faith-based belief in doctrine. This is why most Christians do not keep shoving the dogma in the face of non-believers. They fully understand that their religion is indeed a faith-based belief in doctrine and if someone else has no faith that the doctrine is true it would be silly to keep shoving it in their face.

Even most Christian clergy confess this to be the truth. They don't even attempt to deny it.

After all, why should a Christian be expected to deny the truth?

Many Christians hold the position that being truthful is the higher moral ground.

Christianity is a belief that a specific version of doctrine is the correct "Word of God". That's the truth.

Why deny the truth?

The bible is knowledge. I do not pray to the bible, I do not praise the bible, I do not do anything to the bible but read it. A relationship with God is more then just the scriptures and or the knowledge of God. It is a personal walk with God.

The bible is not knowledge. It's a collection of superstitious fables.

Moreover you do worship the Bible as the "Word of God".

To worship something simple means to revere it highly.

You certainly appear to revere the Bible as being the verbatim infallible "Word of God".

That would indeed be worshiping the Bible as the "Word of God".

You may not be bowing down and paying homage to the actual doctrine.

But by revering the Bible as the verbatim infallible "Word of God" you are indeed worshiping that doctrine as the "Word of God".

And that's what Christianity is. It is nothing other than worshiping the Hebrews as the "Voice of God".

Without their scriptures, Christianity would not even exist.

It's just like Zeus. Without Greek Mythology Zeus would not even exist.

Same thing is true of the Hebrew fables. Without those stories the content and claims of the stories would not even exist.

There is no difference at all.

You choose to reject the fables of Zeus, and embrace the fables of Jesus.

That's all that Christianity amounts to. It's a believe in ancient stories. It is the worshiping of stories as though they represent the infallible story of "God".

God walks with EVERY human...

all the time. (some see him some do not).

Reading a book simply leads to knowledge of the contents of the book... That does not translate to UNDERSTANDING of the contents of said book.

It matters not whether one feels they have a personal 'walk' with God...

God walks even with the spirtually blind. (and they know it not).

I'm not sure what that has to do with the topic, but you are probably right.

Nothing really except that Abra quoted him and linked to an article about him. Aside from the fact that he protected a pedophile network and might be one himself. I guess his sexual preference in this thread should not really be an issue. He could be a nice person for all I know.

Abra. lets lay down some ground rules.

1 to me this is a site to DISCUSS religion not try to belittle it.

2. My faith is very strong and these boards seem like a waist of time to listen to belittlement.

3. I am not trying to convert anyone.. its not my job.. my job u might say is to show my beliefs through my actions not words. words mean little to anyone who does not have an interest.. best to leave well enough alone.

4.. when i have time in a few days if you want to discuss with out the fairy tale.. more facts because who really knows anything.. we all hope and believe whatever but the unseen knowledge is a belief a faith.

I have had little time for these boards and whats the use if neither one of us wants to try and understand the other. hope to hear from you.. Blessings of Shalom..Miles

He is a part of the Illuminati so that disqualifies him as being "nice".

You say,



Well, let's try Miles.

All I'm saying is that recognizing religion as a "Personal Eccentricity" is indeed a "Good Thing".

Unlike Tony Blair's view that it might be a "Bad Thing".

As you probably know by now, I am personally drawn to Eastern Mystical Philosophies of spirituality. I'm also drawn for romantic reasons to Wicca as a valid means of expressing my love and devotion to the "Holy Spirit" of humanity.

If an atheists would like to proclaim that this is nothing more than a "personal eccentricity" on my part, I have absolutely no problem with that at all. On the contrary I would totally agree with the atheist that this is precisely what it is. It's a "FAITH" that something may indeed be possible even though it cannot be known to be true.

I CONFESS that this is precisely what my FAITH in spirituality is.

I do not expect an atheist (or anyone else) to share my faith, or support it in any way (other than to respect my human right to have it).

I do not accuse an atheist (or anyone else) of rebelliously rejecting "God" simply because they don't believe in spirituality, or because they view spirituality differently from my view

So calling my entirely FAITH-BASED spirituality a "personal eccentricity" is fine with me. That doesn't belittle me, nor does it belittle my view of spirituality.

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With Christianity (and other Abrahamic religions) we have a totally different picture.

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The Christians want to demand that the Bible is the absolute "Word of God" and that Jesus is the only begotten son of God, and that their belief in this is not 'Faith-based" at all, but rather just an acknowledgment of absolute TRUTH.

By taking this stance, they are demanding that atheists, and even spiritual people like myself, are not only wrong, but that we are clearly rebelling against "God's" ultimate authority if we refuse to believe in the Christian doctrines.

Therefore, for them, the idea that their religion should be viewed as nothing more than a faith-based personal eccentricity is totally unacceptable.

~~~~~~~

However, as I had pointed out in the OP, there are indeed many modern day "Christians" who have no problem at all with recognizing that the religion is entirely faith-based, and it is indeed a "Personal Walk with God" (which basically amounts to a "Personal Eccentricity")

Just like I recognize that my faith in the Eastern Mystical view of God is a entirely faith-based and thus amounts to nothing more than a "Personal Walk with God", or "Personal Eccentricity".

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The only hold-outs to this view are the radical fundamentalists, who believe that Christianity is not OPEN to faith, but rather it must be accepted and believed as FACT. And they treat it as though it is FACT, and not a Faith-based belief at all.

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There is really no reason why all Christians shouldn't confess that their belief in the Hebrew stories is entirely FAITH-BASED and therefore it cannot truly be anything other than a "Personal Eccentricity" chosen via PURE FAITH.

Evil guys are people too.