You are talking about communication. Not meaning.

I am talking about the meaning of signs, symbols, events, etc.

I tend to think of is as Artgrl. Significance.

What is the significance of The destruction of the world trade center? What does it tell us about the state of things in this world?

What does the event mean?

Probably it means many things to many people. I interpret the event the same way I would interpret a sign or a tarot card.



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Meaning of the Tower:

The tower represents false beliefs and lies and the structures built on them. The truth will be revealed.

The aftermath of the tower reveals the truth in the form of an Epiphany or spiritual awakening.

Things are forced in another direction. This can be a spiritual awakening or just a wake-up call. It can also be a warning of things to come.

The tower comes down as a natural result of karmic events and makes way for something completely new. Like the Death card, this card signifies change that is inevidable and probably needed.


What changes are needed? What changes have we seen?

I'm talking about meaning. Meaning cannot be equal to interpretation because we get interpretation wrong. If we wrongfully interpret meaning, we ascribe meaning that does not exist. If we can wrongfully ascribe meaning that does not exist, it only follows that there is some intrinsic meaning that we've gotten wrong, or there is no such a thing as getting it right.

What you are doing, as usual, is confining the term "meaning" to a tiny little box and insisting that it mean what you want it to mean.

Creative, this is what I see you doing repeatedly. You pick a word or a term and you attempt to "own" it.

Then you attribute a meaning to that word to what you think is correct or that it should mean and you take possession of it. You then practically forbid anyone else to use it except in the way that you (and you alone) have define and understand it.

For example, just like the word "sin." If I use it in a way that is not in line with Christian dogma (which has taken ownership of the word) I am often corrected.

Example, if I say: "It is a sin to give candy to children."

I am jumped on by Christians who lay their claim on ownership of the word "sin" and they are quick to correct me about what "sin" means. They don't even want non-Christians to use that word except as it applies to their religion.

I am saying that the word "meaning" belongs to everyone. It does not belong to you alone.

I use it in the way I understand it. People who I talk to have no problem understanding what I mean.

If I find meaning in something, it is like an opinion. You can't say it is right or wrong or argue with a person who has an opinion that is different from yours.

You can analyze a rainbow to your scientific hearts content and explain why it is there and what it means scientifically but you can't lay claim to what it may personally mean to someone symbolically.

And you have no right to take the word "meaning" and tell people they are not using the word right.

That is what you seem to be trying to do.

What I am doing is called philosophy. It is not for the faint of heart. Below is the argument which negates the assertion that meaning is interpretation, where does it fail?


1. Meaning cannot be equal to interpretation because we get interpretation wrong.
2. If we wrongfully interpret, we ascribe meaning that does not exist.
3. If we can wrongfully ascribe meaning that does not exist, it only follows that there is some intrinsic meaning that we've gotten wrong, or there is no such a thing as getting it right

By the way, meaning is not a word. We have invented the word "meaning" to name something. That something cannot be interpretation.

Many folk hold that meaning is use.

Bah!

Not interested...

Some folk aren't interested in having their false belief questioned. Some folk would rather hold them tightly and build more upon them. Some folk would rather not hold false belief.

Ta ta.

Bah! My belief is not false. Who do you think you are to judge anyone.

You are boring. I'm not interested in your mental rhetoric. Good luck finding anyone who is.


Waste of time.

Are you your belief?

Waste of time talking to you.

I learn all kinds of stuff talking to you.

What is interesting is that if a listener knows what it would take for a speaker's claim to be true, then the listener knows what the speaker means. That ties meaning directly to truth.

Interesting...

Here are the accusations that stem from ascribing meaning wrongfully to my own posts...



All of that is believed to be true in the mind of the speaker. The irony here is that the following was said to me prior to all of the above...





I see. I'm so sorry for telling you that you've used the word wrong...

I think that we can see where meaning is tied directly to truth in the mind as well. I mean, if one has all this different meaning attached to say, a necklace that belonged to a loved one, it is based upon memories that the necklace invokes. Memories are always believed to be true. No one thinks that they hold false memories.

We do though. So, if the memories are false, does that make the meaning false as well?

How do we interpret wrongly? Our perception, and our interpretation of it, is our own.

during the Stanley Cup players and some fans of teams in the playoffs don't shave until their team is knocked out. They ascribe 'meaning' to that ... they believe that if they shave their team will get eliminated ... or they believe it is a show of faith or support or solidarity or whatever ...

They just look like a bunch of scruffyazz men to me



meaning itself has different meanings. As I said earlier one is strictly a definition, a label for a thing or idea. Another is ascribed significance.




No because our perception is our reality. It is the truth we act upon in any given moment regardless of what absolute truth may or may not be. It doesn't matter if our memories are false because we act upon them as though they are true.

This absolute truth you speak of is unknowable to us humans as we see and interpret everything through our own learning and our own senses, our own deceptions ... the filters and masks that make up the human psyche.

If that necklace in your example congers up sentiment - if one deems it to be significant for whatever reason then it has meaning. That doesn't mean that it is permanent however. If memories change, attachments may change ... that object that once had meaning may cease to have meaning ... or it may have meaning in the opposite direction... and by meaning I mean significance.

It only has the significance we place upon it.

When my mother passed, my aunt wanted anything that was worth any money. The most expensive jewelry mainly.

I could care less about any of it. It didn't have any significance to me. I only wanted an inexpensive pair of earrings that I remember my mom wearing all the time. The earrings have very little financial value and thus deemed worthless by my aunt but they are filled with meaning for me.

I was going through a difficult time once and I would never accept emotional support from friends. I was used to doing the giving ... not so good at receiving.

A ladybug flew in my open patio door and managed to fall upside down on the window sill. It just needed a hand to get righted. It reminded me that it was all I needed too...to allow my friends to give me another perspective.

Does that have any meaning based in truth? No ... other than the ladybug was upside down. I made the rest up on my own but it was a catalyst for altered behaviour. It had significance ... it had meaning ... to me....that floundering ladybug became a metaphor ...




I've graduated to a butterfly now

Our perception is our interpretation of the way things are, no? Sometimes we get it wrong, by thinking things mean what they don't.



Meaning is comprised of both, social and private elements. No argument here. However, there are no private languages.



'Our reality' is not reality, it is our interpretation of the way things are.



Acting upon false memories/belief is to take action based upon things that are not true. That matters to me.



I don't speak of absolute truth, you've a mistaken understanding about that.



Agreed.



Regarding the significance placed upon the necklace... agreed.



Did you not believe that those things were true? That you needed to get righted in life, and that friends' perspective would help matters out?

I don't believe so, no. We perceive through our senses ... data mining ... we then interpret what that data means.

I see with my eyes ... dark ... hairy ... 4 legs
I hear with my ears ... huffing noises ... the rustling of leaves
I smell with my nose ... pungent

It is just environmental stimulus. Data. It is my interpretation of the data that gives it context and meaning and which will dictate my response.

Dog ... happiness and engagement Bear ... fear and avoidance horse ... indifference raccoon ... curiosity



And yes ... sometimes we interpret the data wrong. And we respond based upon that misinterpretation.

Sometimes we make decisions without having all the data and with more data would interpret it differently. I don't view that as false belief ... just data and interpretation leading to decision.







We act based upon what we believe to be true at the time. When our belief shifts so does our reaction. When we have more or different data ... our action may yield a different result.





retracted







Sure ... but the meaning that I gave to the ladybug really didn't come from the bug.