Then congratulations on having the whole of everything all figured out.

When will you be finished with your logical theory of everything?

What is the difference between a false belief and a true belief?

My beliefs are true.

Yours are false.

Sorry don't know what I was answering there.

One is believed and the other is not.

Fri 07/22/11 01:29 PM<--------- that post ought be engaged.

Could you give an example where a belief is true because it is believed?

Perhaps it be better put...

What is the difference between believing X is true and X being true?

I changed my answer on you...lol

But I will answer anyway.

Anything that is believed is the truth to the believer.

Nothing if I believe it.

Scientifically there is no correlation between belief and actuality. So scientifically speaking there is nothing that makes it true just from belief, it is just theory.

Why do you keep asking these questions? Why don't you just tell us what your point is.

Bottom line.

What are you doing?

Aw the semantics of truth...lol

Beliefs are truths to the believer. There is no way around that Creative.

I agree that beliefs should be classified differently but they are not in people's minds.

Belief is truth to the believer.

What does it take for a mind to believe something? Whatever that process is, is also the process for truth for that person.



As to your earlier post, no matter if you call it an account of an event, it is the truth of the event to the believer.

You're claiming that there is no difference between believing X and X being true if you believe X?

So, if one believes God exists and created the universe and another believes God does not exist and did not create the universe, both beliefs are true?

Creative, sweetie, if that were not true then there would never be religious wars, arguments, debates, etc...

Of course all of the believers beliefs are true to them.

Now to the observer or the other person of course it is not true, why? Because my belief is true....

You know when you win a debate with someone, you did not win because you proved their belief false, you won because they gave up...lol

philosophically speaking here of course

I think you want everyone to apply scientific truth to everything and it isn't going to happen, life is shades of gray, not black and white like science is.

Some people are wrong. Some believers will equate the two and call their own belief "the truth". There is no need to get around that. There is only the need to know better.

What they mean is that they believe that whatever they just said is true; is the way things are/were; accurately describes the case at hand; etc.

What it shows is that they do not know the difference between believing that X is true and X being true. The former depends entirely upon the content of the claimant's thought/belief and the latter does not.

All we must do is look at what a mistake is and it puts all this conflation of belief and truth to rest.



So you agree that believing X does not make X the case/true?



To believe X is to believe that X is true... without exception. Belief alone does not - cannot - make X true. We know that because we know that false beliefs exist. We know that we've made mistakes in thought/belief. If belief alone made itself true, then there could not be false belief, we could not make a mistake.

There is no question whether or not different people believe different and opposing things. There is no question that people hold that their beliefs are true. We know this.

I'm showing you that just because one believes X the belief itself does not make X the case/the way things are/true. That is clearly shown by the example I've provided. Both of those beliefs cannot be true. One negates the other. If one is true, then the other is false. If the other is true then the one is false.

They cannot both be true. They are both believed to be true. Therefore, we can only conclude that belief is insufficient for truth.

Okay then stop using the word belief/believe.

If you say fact x is true then no matter who believes it I know it has been verified and it is true to the best that scientific testing can do.

But if you say believe or belief then all beliefs are true in the mind of the believer.

There is no way around that. It wouldn't be a belief if it wasn't.

Now you did say thought, not all thoughts are true. Not even to the thinker are they for surely true or truth.

Creative beliefs are true to the believer no matter what exists to disprove it.

Religion is a great example of this. You do realize the insane concepts that are believed in religions. Not true but you can't convince them of that.

Dragoness,

Your thinking on the matter at hand has been tainted by this "scientific vs. philosophic" aspect brought on by the likes of other posters. I've not mentioned physics nor science nor anything of the sort except to clear up the confusion that has been brought to the table, so to speak, because of those things being mentioned.

My position here does not require nor employ such a thing. Therefore, unless it can be shown that that distinction necessarily entails and/or exhausts my position on the matter...

It is useless for the discussion at hand.

When it comes down to that which I KNOW to be true.

I can only deal with me, I do I am I see I feal etc....

Because technically, I cannot KNOW if a even a scientific truth is true. I have to accept or trust them. But I still cannot KNOW IT FOR LIFE OR DEATH CERTAINTY.