With all due respect how does this stand up in light of many things that are being held out in the name of this religion?

You have people ending up with the devil "by surprise" wishing they could get out. But that flies in the face of the idea that they chose to be their via their own free will choice. Sounds like they were duped beyond their own realization, and therefore they know not
what they do.

But in these stories Jesus would ask the Father, "Father, please forgive them for they know not what they do"

You can't have people being condemned to Satan without being fully aware of the choice that they are making. That makes no sense and violates Jesus' own proclamation that people who know not what they do should not be judged so harshly.

In other words, you can't have their condemnation being both they knowledgeable 'free will choice', and a result of their ignorance for they know not what they do.

That's an oxymoron that does not stand in the face of "righteousness".



The devil was God's "Most loved angel"? So you're saying that God plays favorites with his children be they mortal human or angels?

God "most trusted Satan"? Where was God's omniscience? How could Satan have tricked God and hid his true "heart", or true intentions, from God?


You also ask,


Well, that's an extremely good question to ask in these stories. What would happen at that point? Would humans then no longer be "tempted" to do "bad" things?

I've always argues that these stories are lame from the get go. Here you have a story of the human race being lied to by an evil demonic fallen angel. These humans are supposed totally innocent and naive at this point. They cannot possibly know of the 'evil' of lying because they haven't yet eaten of the fruit of the knowledge of Good and Evil.

So they can't even comprehend the concept of a "lie". How are they supposed to realize that this demonic angel is "lying" to them when they are so totally innocent and haven't even learned the difference between "good and evil"?

Moreover, why is it that humankind had to be coerced and lied to by a fallen demonic angel before they could "fall from grace"?

Would they not have "fallen from grace" on their own?

I would have been far more impressed with these stories if they had Adam and Eve conniving on their own to thwart God's rules. Then they could seriously be held guilty for having concocted their own demise.

But no, this story has the human race as totally innocent as can be and is only sucked into "sin" via being duped by a demonic angel who lies to them even whilst they are in an innocent state of mind where they cannot possible even recognize a 'lie'.

How could they have knowledge of 'lies' if they didn't yet have the knowledge of "good and evil". Lies are evil.

This whole story is actually solely a story about a God and a fallen angel. Poor humans just got sucked into their dispute totally innocently.

~~~~~~

Above, you have humans getting sucked into the demonic angel's plan to turn human souls away from God, and then being surprised and in shock of their situation and wanting OUT.

Well gee whiz, if they are surprised and shocked of their situation they most certainly could not have knowingly CHOSE to be in situation.

And therefore Jesus himself pleads with God, "Father forgive them for their know now what they do"

What sense does that even make? Here you have Jesus arguing with God's method of judgment.

Moreover, these same stories claim that the Father judgeth no man, and all judgment has been committed to the Son, which is supposed to be Jesus himself.

Therefore, if we accept these stories. We must concluded that after Jesus died and went back home he was finally award his promised role of being the sole judge of humans. And clearly Jesus refuses to judge anyone who knows not what they do.

Therefore based on this story Jesus himself will not permit anyone to go to hell unless they have consciously and knowingly made that decision beyond any shadow of a doubt.

People who are simply confused or don't know what to believe are all necessarily off the hook because they can't possible have known what they were doing concerning these choices.

Jesus will only condemn those who know full well what they are doing.

So no one can make it to hell by accident. No "surprised" souls wondering how they wound up in hell.

That would violate Jesus' dying desire that people who know not what they do should be forgiven.

Then I would lose all respect for him.

No, seriously if that happened, the jig would be up.

Game over.

God would say TO ALL OF US:

"NEVERMIND!"

"The war is over."

This sounds rather like Alice in Wonderland to me. Here is a Garden. Here is a green pill you may eat, here is a red pill you may not eat. If you eat from the forbidden red pill you will become self-aware and fall down the rabbit hole and fall prey to all manner of lustful temptation.

WTHeck does that mean to the innocent and unaware Adam and Eve? And WHY would an all knowing god even put such a temptation before two of its VULNERABLE creations, (obviously KNOWING) that the temptation would be too much to handle?

I find that to be beyond all human logic and comprehension that any individual would buy this story and FAULT humanity for every condition it has suffered since Adam and Eve ate the 'red pill' and fell down the rabbit hole. Why did your perfect god put the pill there knowing that there was an internal flaw that would make its humans fall prey to the temptations (god) put before them.

Come-onnnnnn ya gotta admit that sounds ......

I do really try not to laugh but the dogma here becomes far too extreme to be considered reality in any functional sense.

I have a great deal of respect for those individuals who harbor a personal belief and live their own life with conviction to values they have carefully determined to be the most ethical with respect to their environment, other humans, and for their own future well-being.

I have the same respect for those who would say - "look I know it sounds weird and makes no sense, but I buy the whole bible thing and so I have to believe it no matter how rediculous it sounds." IN OTHER WORDS - PLEASE just admit that you KNOW how rediculous and senseless faith can be and that there is no accounting for your own beliefs (NOT EVEN THE BIBLE)but you have faith in it all anyway.

I could really respect that, especially if it is a stance the individual adopts for him or herself and expects no one else to adhere to his or her beliefs, nor expects society to create laws for enforcing his or her beliefs.

Ok begin again with:



ALL YOU HAVE TO DO - makes is sound like you have to do this ONE thing.. right? But you don't stop after that one thing "believe in Him"
Oh NOoo... you have to go right into the dogmatic stance that says "hey, I buy what's in the Bible so I have to beleive all this stuff".

That's all good but you can't explain the lack of logic that persists throughout religious scriptures. So how do individuals determine what they need to be repentant of?

"I'm sorry that I use nuclear energy and that now Japan is in crisis and millions of poeple will suffer for my abuse." "I'm sorry I over consumed and now my garbage overflows the landfills that are leeching toxins into the environment destroying limited resources and causing cancer.

Quite obviously there is precious little consensus of opinion in that matter as there is no consistency in scriptural interpretation.

http://www.gotquestions.org/tree-knowledge-good-evil.html



http://www.gotquestions.org/forbidden-fruit.html



http://www.gotquestions.org/questions_Creation.html

I responded to the question of how is it possible for a perfect God to create a perfectly imperfect human race.

I stated my beliefs.

Those are my beliefs.

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything.

I see logical errors in all the responses to my statement but I know there is nothing I can say that will convince anyone that belief in God is logical. You already have your logic lined up and that is that. Just as mine is and that is that.

You are entitled to your opinion as am I.

Neither of us will convince the other that they are wrong.

Where you see a logical error, I see a misunderstanding of faith.

That simple.

So, discard it if you choose. Try to argue that my faith is stupid. It doesn't matter. I will still believe as I do because ... I believe. It is not possible to line up a logical argument where I turn around and say, "Yes, you're right, I have been a fool all my life."

If that's what you wish to believe so be it, though to be fair those that argue against the Biblical version of God aren't neccessarily saying He doesn't exist, but rather that the story we have been taught about Him and His nature isn't exactly accurate. There is a difference.

I think belief in God is logical. I just don't buy the concept of the Christian's idea of God. To me, its not logical at all.

Probably because belief in God is as unique as the people that hold their beliefs.

Some have unusual views, others are strict and others believe without knowing why.

Trying to find the Truth by listening to various different opinions on what that actually means will probably just lead to confusion.

Search for the Truth on your own. That is all I can say.

Kind of like, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

So, my views are my own. Arguing my views are wrong because someone else that has faith said this other thing - just doesn't make sense. There is not one singular correct way to believe in God and Jesus. The argument that is most brought up by nonbelievers is that Christians claim there is only one. There isn't. It is your own personal journey in learning and loving God and Jesus. The way or reason you believe is varied. There are some concepts that hold true for Christians obviously. The most obvious is that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior and Son of God. How you get to that place is your own journey.

Christians are continually talking among themselves trying to get a better appreciation of what their faith means and why they should believe. There is always debate. But that doesn't mean they doubt the core concepts, just their journey is unique and they are looking for the next step to take on their own.

Some of the arguments I have heard are based on what other Christians have said that aren't entirely correct. Because they allow themselves to be sucked down into the details and argue about this speck of sand and that somehow proves the entire beach is false. They get confused and misstate something and everyone jumps on them saying this proves they are mean and vindictive just by being Christian. Something along those lines.

Essentially, you want to find out the Truth about God and Jesus? Talk to Them. They will tell you what you need to know for yourself.

Ok, that is your choice. I won't argue that.

I will never claim that belief in Christianity is required based on logic. There is a whole lot more to that faith than logic alone will allow to be stated.

Here's the thing though, when you add Jesus into the mix, it DOES become one way, because no other way is true by default then. If you had said, there's no singular correct way to believe in God, I'd agree with you that there isn't. But to throw Jesus onto the end of that statement, makes the path to God rather limited.

Reason being, is that though one may get to your belief in different forms, in order to be right you have come to that one conclusion and one conclusion only. There is no room for anything else.

So, let me get this straight. You don't want to believe in Jesus because He says He is the only way. You want multiple options to get to Heaven. So, in essence you are telling God how wide His net must be for you, before you will accept Him.

I am a Christian therefore I believe that Jesus is the only way for me. Are there other possible avenues to get to Heaven? Yes, for those that have never known Him there is a chance to get to Heaven. It is more difficult according to what Jesus said but not impossible. but for those that have KNOWN Him and reject Him it is not possible.

I feel it would be safe to say that everyone that has argued any of my points so far has not KNOWN Jesus. Therefore that line does NOT apply to them.

Don't ask me how you can get to Heaven without believing in Jesus. He doesn't specify that.

No what I am saying is, man limits an unlimited God by saying that there is but one way or path to Him. To me if there's only one creator, than all paths are going to lead back to that creator, simply because there is no other one that exists.

As for the last part, you make the assumption that because a book says something, that it's automatically true. But that isn't neccessarily the case.

Ok, well, I believe the Bible to be True. That makes it true as far as I am concerned.

Take it or reject it. That is your choice.

If you don't want to accept what I am saying, you don't have to.

Just don't tell me I am being unfair. I believe what I believe. Why would it matter to you that my belief says I am doing the right thing while others are not?

You don't want to believe and follow another path, that is your GOD given right.

What I take issue with, is you in effect sort of become your own God, in passing judgment on others simply because they disagree with what you do.

I never have said that people who don't agree with me are damned, yet Christianity says this very thing. That is what I don't like.

Where have I ever said you are damned for not believing in Christianity??? You are projecting your perception of what Christianity stands for upon me. That perception is invalid.

I have said that Jesus said it is possible to get to Heaven if you have never KNOWN Him.

There is no way for me to know if anyone else is damned or not. You could get to Heaven without ever knowing or believing in Jesus. I can't condemn you as I am not God.

My belief states that it is a lot easier to get to Heaven by believing in Jesus as your Lord and Savior. But not impossible without it.

For me personally - does not apply to you - if I choose now to reject Jesus and say He is a fraud. I am dooming MYSELF to Hell. Not anyone else.

Even if you don't personally condemn people, you can't deny your own religion does in fact do such condemning. There's no way around that.

Yes I can.

Because the people that say that are flat wrong.

There is only one instance that I am aware of where Jesus says you are condemned.

"If You KNOW Me and reject Me..."

I believe knowing constitutes having a belief in Him as your own Lord and Savior. Therefore, it ONLY applies to someone that at some point in their lives professed to be Christian.

Either way, it is still said.

You can't reject someone unless they try to force them self on you. I don't imagine Jesus does that to people today, after all, he's dead.

God doesn't do it either.

But I can't imagine anyone who knows God in their heart, (which is a great feeling of Joy AND LOVE) would ever reject that.

But there is always a chance.

If that happens, they reincarnate back as a cockroach and have to start all over probably.