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| Topic: God and perfection....... | |
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Edited by
Kleisto
on
Sat 05/14/11 04:41 PM
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I brought this up in another thread, but no one responded to it, so figured I'd start a separate topic about it here.
So the story goes, that God is perfect. That's what everyone is pretty much told. Ok.....let's assume that is the case. If that's true, than how is it possible that humankind, this whole species of people that this perfect God created, can be imperfect as Christians tend to claim? It makes no sense. If God is perfect, than naturally it would follow that we were made perfectly as well. That is to say, with good and bad qualities alike, we are as God intended us to be. A perfect God would not create people or things that were imperfect would He? If He did, that means that He himself is not perfect, and is in fact fallible, because he made a mistake in His creation. And if this is the case, how is it fair to punish US for a mistake He made? He made us this way, so how is it our fault for acting as we were created? In any case, which is it? Is God perfect or is He not? He can't be both. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Sat 05/14/11 05:03 PM
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I don't pay much attention to people who go around claiming that God is perfect.
They are usually talking about their personal anthropomorphic concept of God or Jesus being perfectly good. It is not realistic and the term "perfect" is a relative term. It can also be a subjective opinion. Perfect actually means complete or whole. It does not necessarily mean pure or good. A definition of perfect would have to be in order. Now if they want to say that the example of the image or concept of "Jesus" is the ideal human, one that we might aspire to, I can accept that. But the idea of perfect is a hard one for humans to grasp. They say things like what you just said. "If God is so perfect why is this world not perfect and why aren't we perfect." Your argument is one that screams either your own discontent with the world as it is, or your disdain for people who claim that God is perfect. You want to prove them wrong and you give the example of what you see in the world that you feel is imperfect as your evidence. That just shows that you do not understand the universal laws of creation and vibration, the law of allowance etc. We are the co-creators of this world and we are responsible for the "imperfections" here. The system is perfect. It allows us a place to practice our creative powers. Yep, we have created a lot of messes, and a lot of imperfect things. But that is what we are here to learn. |
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Edited by
Kleisto
on
Sat 05/14/11 05:21 PM
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Your argument is one that screams either your own discontent with the world as it is, or your disdain for people who claim that God is perfect. You want to prove them wrong and you give the example of what you see in the world that you feel is imperfect as your evidence. Not exactly, perhaps I should explain a little more. I understand why the world is as it is, and that everything good and bad has a purpose in the divine plan. That none of it is a mistake. In terms of those who say that God is perfect, I am addressing those more in the religious sect, who believe that God can create a perfect world, and yet then in the same breath punish people for basically acting as they were made. Point being, if God is perfect as they say, then he cannot create anything that goes against what he wanted for his creation. Because if he did, he would cease to be perfect having made a mistake in his creation. Is that better? |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Sat 05/14/11 05:22 PM
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Your argument is one that screams either your own discontent with the world as it is, or your disdain for people who claim that God is perfect. You want to prove them wrong and you give the example of what you see in the world that you feel is imperfect as your evidence. Not exactly, perhaps I should explain a little more. I understand why the world is as it is, and that everything good and bad has a purpose in the divine plan. That none of it is a mistake. In terms of those who say that God is perfect, I am addressing those more in the religious sect, who believe that God can create a perfect world, and yet then in the same breath punish people for basically acting as they were made. Point being, if God is perfect as they say, then he cannot create anything that goes against what he wanted for his creation. Because if he did, he would cease to be perfect having made a mistake in His creation. Is that better? The truth is people weren't made "bad." They were made with free will. The truth is people are not "punished" by God. They create their own punishment according to the universal law. Orthodox religions do not realize or teach this. They teach the father figure God who dishes out rewards and punishments. This is just not how the universe was made. This is not the way it is. |
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well god is perfect and man was made perfect and woman also but as time or generations have existied people have made bad choices and everything is by choice. god wants you to come to him willingly not by force but with open arms and freely. people choosen they way there lifes turn out by choices they make,more importantly choices they make when no one is watching. gods people perish from the lack of knowledge and perfect basicly refers to perfect worship in god
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Your argument is one that screams either your own discontent with the world as it is, or your disdain for people who claim that God is perfect. You want to prove them wrong and you give the example of what you see in the world that you feel is imperfect as your evidence. Not exactly, perhaps I should explain a little more. I understand why the world is as it is, and that everything good and bad has a purpose in the divine plan. That none of it is a mistake. In terms of those who say that God is perfect, I am addressing those more in the religious sect, who believe that God can create a perfect world, and yet then in the same breath punish people for basically acting as they were made. Point being, if God is perfect as they say, then he cannot create anything that goes against what he wanted for his creation. Because if he did, he would cease to be perfect having made a mistake in His creation. Is that better? The truth is people weren't made "bad." They were made with free will. The truth is people are not "punished" by God. They create their own punishment according to the universal law. Orthodox religions do not realize or teach this. They teach the father figure God who dishes out rewards and punishments. This is just not how the universe was made. This is not the way it is. |
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i believe your question, you can find it in the Bible, Genesis 3:14
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I don't even think god claimed to be perfect in any of his man made narratives.
Perfection is always in the eye of the beholder anyway. Perfection is subjective as is truth... |
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This always cracks me up every time I read it:
Before they ate the forbidden fruit: Genesis 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. After they ate the forbidden fruit: Genesis 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. ~~~~~~~ Like duh? Is it a sin for them to be naked or not? If it is, then clearly they were committing "sin" even before they ate the forbidden fruit. And God himself would have been guilty of not having provided them with clothes. Now after they have eaten the forbidden fruit they suddenly realize that they've been sinning all along by being naked? That absurd. ~~~~~ These stories make no sense. |
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I didn't even notice that hypocrisy at the beginning...lol
I always get stuck in the misogyny of woman and the snake. |
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I brought this up in another thread, but no one responded to it, so figured I'd start a separate topic about it here. So the story goes, that God is perfect. That's what everyone is pretty much told. Ok.....let's assume that is the case. If that's true, than how is it possible that humankind, this whole species of people that this perfect God created, can be imperfect as Christians tend to claim? It makes no sense. If God is perfect, than naturally it would follow that we were made perfectly as well. That is to say, with good and bad qualities alike, we are as God intended us to be. A perfect God would not create people or things that were imperfect would He? If He did, that means that He himself is not perfect, and is in fact fallible, because he made a mistake in His creation. And if this is the case, how is it fair to punish US for a mistake He made? He made us this way, so how is it our fault for acting as we were created? In any case, which is it? Is God perfect or is He not? He can't be both. So the story goes, that God is perfect. That's what everyone is pretty much told. Ok.....let's assume that is the case. If that's true, than how is it possible that humankind, this whole species of people that this perfect God created, can be imperfect as Christians tend to claim? Humans are perfect, in the way they are created. Their decisions are not always perfect, but that is due to their own choice, not associated to God for we all have free will and can do what we wish. It is people's choice(s) to not being perfect. A child is perfect in every way, a child as in anywhere from 5ish - 10ish. There actions are innocent, sweet, loving, and caring for others. Through our lives, we allow our hearts to be hardened through the different tribulations in life. Yes, not all allow their hearts to get as hardened as others, but nevertheless we mostly all have a more hardened heart then a little innocent child. But all in all, God's original creation, when you were born, was/is perfect. It is our own choices that deteriorate the perfection. |
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This always cracks me up every time I read it: Before they ate the forbidden fruit: Genesis 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. After they ate the forbidden fruit: Genesis 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. ~~~~~~~ Like duh? Is it a sin for them to be naked or not? If it is, then clearly they were committing "sin" even before they ate the forbidden fruit. And God himself would have been guilty of not having provided them with clothes. Now after they have eaten the forbidden fruit they suddenly realize that they've been sinning all along by being naked? That absurd. ~~~~~ These stories make no sense. Children will run around naked together all day. Children again ages anywhere from birth to 5/6ish or so, differs from person to person. They don't feel they are doing anything "bad" or "uncalled for" or anything like that. They see it as normal and or alright. When Adam/Eve at of the tree they seen the immoral to this, they "grew up" if you will. They attained "desires" for one another. |
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Cowboy wrote: Children will run around naked together all day. Children again ages anywhere from birth to 5/6ish or so, differs from person to person. They don't feel they are doing anything "bad" or "uncalled for" or anything like that. They see it as normal and or alright. When Adam/Eve at of the tree they seen the immoral to this, they "grew up" if you will. They attained "desires" for one another. And where does it say this in the FABLES Cowboy?  Too bad you were around back then to write your own stories. Maybe you could have written a more convincing mythology? I think I could have too! But we aren't interested in make-believe ideas. All we're concerned about is the the actual fables have to say for themselves. There is no mention of any "desires" for one another in these texts. And besides, it had already been written that they were "Man and Wife" prior to this. Therefore, even if they did have "desires" for one another there would have been absolutely nothing wrong with that in marriage anyway. There is no "sin" in desiring your spouse. So much for your "unwritten theories".  |
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Edited by
mylifetoday
on
Sat 05/14/11 10:14 PM
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I believe that before the fruit was eaten they didn't know sin. That means none of the negative connotations of sex existed. After they ate the fruit they lusted. That is why they covered themselves.
So, if we had no sin associated with sex today, we could all walk around naked without worry or care. No one would be "bothered" by it if that were the case. Sin was unknown to them until after... God did make us perfect. He made us with the choice to make. Love Him or not. That is where the devil comes in. He prefers that we don't love God. God did not create sin. The devil brought it out to win men away from God. God did not intervene in that because He wants us to love Him of our own volition. |
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Cowboy wrote: Children will run around naked together all day. Children again ages anywhere from birth to 5/6ish or so, differs from person to person. They don't feel they are doing anything "bad" or "uncalled for" or anything like that. They see it as normal and or alright. When Adam/Eve at of the tree they seen the immoral to this, they "grew up" if you will. They attained "desires" for one another. And where does it say this in the FABLES Cowboy? Too bad you were around back then to write your own stories. Maybe you could have written a more convincing mythology? I think I could have too! But we aren't interested in make-believe ideas. All we're concerned about is the the actual fables have to say for themselves. There is no mention of any "desires" for one another in these texts. And besides, it had already been written that they were "Man and Wife" prior to this. Therefore, even if they did have "desires" for one another there would have been absolutely nothing wrong with that in marriage anyway. There is no "sin" in desiring your spouse. So much for your "unwritten theories". There is no mention of any "desires" for one another in these texts. I explained it incorrectly and I apologize. It's not the desires in exacts that they seen as immoral. But what happens in the bedroom, stays in the bedroom. This includes the beauty of the other's body, that would include seeing the other naked. It's immoral in the fact that other's could have seen them in the nude, not particularly each other. But "other" people. Same concept as why it's illegal to just walk around in the nude today, same reasoning that law is in place. It's not illegal/wrong to be nude in privacy, but in the "public" it is. |
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I was going to offer my opinion, but when someone is calling the Bible fables ... there is no point... That is just his opinion, everyone is allowed their opinion. |
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mylifetoday wrote: God did make us perfect. He made us with the choice to make. Love Him or not. That is where the devil comes in. He prefers that we don't love God. God did not create sin. The devil brought it out to win men away from God. God did not intervene in that because He wants us to love Him of our own volition. You can certainly look at it that way as many do. However, look at the problems you run into there. You have a God basically gambling with a supposedly demonic angel in a contest to "win" souls. In fact, the idea is that this demonic angel basically as a "bet" with God that he can win the favor of the souls that God creates. And evidently he clearly WINNING the bet! And this God is LOSING the bet. At one point every thought of all mankind was supposedly evil. In other words the demonic angel had WON. He had succeeded in turning every single soul that God had created away from God and in the favor of the demonic angel. Gen.6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. So clearly at that point this fallen angel had won his bet with God and had succeeded in turning every single man away from God. Yet rather than tossing in the towel and admitting that he had been defeated by the demonic angel he decides to "save" a handful of people (i.e. Noah and his small family of sons and their wives), flush the rest of the souls over to the demonic angel who had rightfully WON them, and then demand that they start a New Game from there. But as the biblical stories progress it doesn't get any better. Finally this God, in an act of what can only be seen as an extreme act of desperation sacrifices his only begotten son, to PAY the demonic angel for the right to "save" a few souls who clearly would never love God on their own. In fact Jesus even brings us the "Good News" (Good news for the demonic angel I guess). Jesus confesses that the path is straight and the gate is narrow to the kingdom of God and only FEW will make it. He's basically proclaiming that God has indeed LOST his bet with the demonic angel and sees no hope of every turning the game around. So even after this extremely desperate sacrifice of his only begotten son to PAY for a few souls, that's all God will ever get out of this game. Clearly the demonic angel has WON the vast majority of souls that God had created. It's a truly sad story of a God who loses the vast majority of souls that he created to a sly demonic angel.  Even the desperate sacrifice of his own son didn't turn things around in his favor. Satan wins, and the God loses. Sure, this story has this God being a really sore loser in the end and squishing the head of the demonic angel. But that doesn't change the damage that had been done, and the fact that the demonic angel actually beat God and WON the bet. It a very sad story of a desperate loser God, who can only claim "victory" in the end by squishing the head of the demonic angel who clearly beat him at his own game. If I were describing a Greek Mythological tale here, you'd just laugh and say, "Well nobody believes that those stories are anything more than just man-made fables" Yet, since what I've just described is a tale that was written by the Hebrews, for some reason people act like we should take this stuff seriously. Why? Truly. Why? Why should we take such outlandish nonsense seriously? |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Sat 05/14/11 11:22 PM
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God did make us perfect. He made us with the choice to make. Love Him or not. That is where the devil comes in. He prefers that we don't love God. God did not create sin. The devil brought it out to win men away from God. God did not intervene in that because He wants us to love Him of our own volition. What does it mean to you to "love God?" I mean, you have never met him. When in your daily life do you meet the devil face to face? Since "sin" literally is defined as "disobedience" of God, God (The Christian concept of God) did indeed create sin. If God didn't allegedly have so many rules to "obey" there would be no disobedience hence no sin. But none of what you say above is true. In truth, sin is only sin against yourself and against the universal law. You create your own hell and heaven. God gives us free will. That means there are no rules, there is only freedom. Our fates and our rewards and our punishment are all self created via the universal law of creation and vibration. |
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mylifetoday wrote: God did make us perfect. He made us with the choice to make. Love Him or not. That is where the devil comes in. He prefers that we don't love God. God did not create sin. The devil brought it out to win men away from God. God did not intervene in that because He wants us to love Him of our own volition. You can certainly look at it that way as many do. However, look at the problems you run into there. You have a God basically gambling with a supposedly demonic angel in a contest to "win" souls. In fact, the idea is that this demonic angel basically as a "bet" with God that he can win the favor of the souls that God creates. And evidently he clearly WINNING the bet! And this God is LOSING the bet. At one point every thought of all mankind was supposedly evil. In other words the demonic angel had WON. He had succeeded in turning every single soul that God had created away from God and in the favor of the demonic angel. Gen.6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. So clearly at that point this fallen angel had won his bet with God and had succeeded in turning every single man away from God. Yet rather than tossing in the towel and admitting that he had been defeated by the demonic angel he decides to "save" a handful of people (i.e. Noah and his small family of sons and their wives), flush the rest of the souls over to the demonic angel who had rightfully WON them, and then demand that they start a New Game from there. But as the biblical stories progress it doesn't get any better. Finally this God, in an act of what can only be seen as an extreme act of desperation sacrifices his only begotten son, to PAY the demonic angel for the right to "save" a few souls who clearly would never love God on their own. In fact Jesus even brings us the "Good News" (Good news for the demonic angel I guess). Jesus confesses that the path is straight and the gate is narrow to the kingdom of God and only FEW will make it. He's basically proclaiming that God has indeed LOST his bet with the demonic angel and sees no hope of every turning the game around. So even after this extremely desperate sacrifice of his only begotten son to PAY for a few souls, that's all God will ever get out of this game. Clearly the demonic angel has WON the vast majority of souls that God had created. It's a truly sad story of a God who loses the vast majority of souls that he created to a sly demonic angel. Even the desperate sacrifice of his own son didn't turn things around in his favor. Satan wins, and the God loses. Sure, this story has this God being a really sore loser in the end and squishing the head of the demonic angel. But that doesn't change the damage that had been done, and the fact that the demonic angel actually beat God and WON the bet. It a very sad story of a desperate loser God, who can only claim "victory" in the end by squishing the head of the demonic angel who clearly beat him at his own game. If I were describing a Greek Mythological tale here, you'd just laugh and say, "Well nobody believes that those stories are anything more than just man-made fables" Yet, since what I've just described is a tale that was written by the Hebrews, for some reason people act like we should take this stuff seriously. Why? Truly. Why? Why should we take such outlandish nonsense seriously? What you said is pretty much correct from the point of view of one with no faith or belief in God. Just rephrase a few sentences and remove the derogatory comments about God and you pretty much have my view. I disagree on your assessment that God lost obviously. Let's see. God loves all. God is very forgiving, all you have to do is believe in Him and ask for it with a repentant heart. The devil is the angel God loved most. The devil is resentful of God for not allowing him to have an equal place by His side. So, the devil is trying to win souls away from God. But the souls he wins are beaten and torn. Doesn't get much satisfaction in that other than thumbing his nose at God for getting another one. There are a VERY rare few that love the devil. But most that end up with him are there by surprise. They don't love the devil and would wish to get out. But, the devil was God's most loved angel. Most trusted. What would happen if the devil truly repented and asked God's forgiveness??? Some may consider that blaspheme... |
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Honestly, perfection is boring and unnatural! No more room left for growing or bettering one's self!
I think the idea that god created us in his perfection means that he did the best job with what he had. Also, a loving god would want his children to have self-confidence and -reliability. Ever been in a relationship where the other person thinks they can do better...it sucks, you always feel like you aren't good enough. He doesn't want that for us, IMO! He wants us to believe in ourselves and look within to solve our problems in life. Trust that he gave us what we need to survive and even be happy! My parents aren't perfect and God isn't either, but they love us and want us to trust ourselves enough to make the right choices for our lives. Do you think the devil didn't rip god's heart out when he betrayed him? God knows how much love can hurt and as a good father wants his children to know that at least he thinks they are wonderful, beautiful beings and worthy of love without betrayal! |
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