What I can't understand is why would anyone represent a religion that has so much blood on their hands? From the witch trials in which I have cried so often about (yeah I am a wimp) to the persecutions of really intelligent people who just had a different belief system.

To the invention of such words as heresy, the word infidel, the word pagan, and heathen and used it as grounds to condemn innocent people.

To the torturing sessions by holy men or should I say ugly souled men!

If one needs to have faith in something supernatural wouldn't it be prune to believe in a faith that has no violence in its history or such gruesome experiences as justified in today's society. Wouldn't it leave you with a cleaner conscience if you followed a more peaceful religion or spiritual following?

What are your thoughts on this?

Do like me and say to hell with religion! It causes more harm than good in this world.

Will sum it up simply:

"Ye shall know them by their fruits"

The Bible itself says this. Now look at the fruits of religion. If you are honest about it, they are clearly rotten.

I have debated this many times in the past here. Not here to debate, just to give my point of view. Those were done by men hiding behind religion, not the religion. Just like what Stalin did doesn't represent what Atheists believe. Or saying pagans are bad because they are now finding out the ancient Druids were cannibals.

You can blame the religion but it makes equal since to blame the male species since they have caused more throughout history with different religious beliefs.

just saying....

Great things come from certain religions. Christianity for instance, holds a lot of charities, they give to the poor, help the homeless, ect. There is nothing negative about Christianity. It does not teach to kill unbelievers, doesn't teach to do anything a long any form of lines like that.

Teaches us, merely to love other's more then oneself. To help other's before oneself. Now if some don't do that, that is the person's fault. Not the religion itself, for the religion teaches us to do as such.

But the religion teaches anyone who doesn't believe as they are told is damned. How on earth can that ever be justified as loving??

Who's the one not being loving here? Let's break it down...

The being giving blessings after blessings to you with no questions asked.

The person not being thankful of these blessings to this being that has given them their blessings?

So, you tell me who's the one being loving and the one that's not.

Let me spell it out for you.

Say you're in a relationship, and you're not happy. You decide you wanna breakup and move on. When you try to, you are told: "You have free will to do as you wish, but if you leave, I will take this gun and shoot you to death".

Now society would see that person as sick and deranged for obvious reasons. But when God makes such a threat, he's holy? Come on now, that makes no sense. That is NOT love.

I have no problem with being thankful for blessings and all I am given. What I DO have a problem with, is being told I will burn forever if I don't things but one way. The entire notion of a loving God acting like that is absurd!

This is far more loving:
""You can choose to do things your own way as you wish, just so long as you understand that every choice has a consequence to it, so choose wisely. Know I am here no matter what happens though."

That is a much better picture of God than what the Bible and religion paints. It doesn't discount consequences, just lets you know your path is up to you, and it's always gonna be there regardless. No need for petty threats at all. It's those type of threats, that turn people OFF God, more than draw people to Him.

Something like this, would be far more likely to bring people to Him than what religion spouts.

You see death as a punishment of something you've done or not done. It's not. Eternal life is a gift given to those whom are obedient to God.



What's so different from that and what God has done?

Doing something loving for someone purely out of love for no reward
- Your way, someone would be "rewarded" for that. Or whatever consequence you can think of to come of that
- God's way, someone is "rewarded" and blessed for that. Or whatever consequence God chooses.

Doing something "evil" towards someone elese.
- Your way, someone would get a form of punishment for this.
- God's way, someone would get a form of punishment for this and or not be rewarded for such.

What's so different between the two? The only big difference I see, is you are wishing God was doing things as he was with the old covenant between man and God. Eye for an eye. Just with our consequence(s) of our actions now with the new covenant Jesus brought, we will have one big judgment rather then being judged for each individual action/decision as they are done.

What's different? One binds you to it via fear and threats. The other frees from all of that to make of your life what you want, bearing in mind the consequences of choices down here. And also makes it clear, that no matter what you do, you will still have God to go to for guidance. That there is no separation between you and God, except that which you create yourself in this life.

If it's gift, then nothing needs be done to obtain it. We've been over this before, learn your definitions.

And the obedience thing speaks to a king/slave relationship, not a father-son.

My thoughts are:

There is a difference between 'religion' which is formal and dogmatic and 'belief' which is personal, well considered, and an on-going experience of learning for the individual. Let me explain with some famous people and some quotes.

Martin Luther King, Jr. - A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death.
&
I plan to stand by nonviolence, because I have found it to be a philosophy of life that regulates not only my dealings in the struggle for racial justice, but also my dealings with people, and with my own self.


Nelson Mandela- Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world.
&
If you talk to a man in a language he understands, that goes to his head. If you talk to him in his language, that goes to his heart.
&
If you want to make peace with your enemy, you have to work with your enemy. Then he becomes your partner.

Booker T. Washington - Don't ever let them pull you down so low as to hate them. (also cited as: I will permit no man to narrow and degrade my soul by making me hate him.)

Mohandas Gandhi – I am part and parcel of the whole and cannot find God apart from the rest of humanity.

Abraham Lincoln - I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends.

Bishop Desmond Tutu - If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.

Moshe Dayan - If you want to make peace, you don't talk to your friends. You talk to your enemies.

Marie Curie - Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood. Now is the time to understand more, so that we may fear less.

Carl Sandburg - Someday they'll give a war and nobody will come.

The Monkeys – Zor & Zam
The king of Zor, he called for war
And the king of Zam, he answered.
They fashioned their weapons one upon one
Ton upon ton, they called for war at the rise of the sun.

Out went the call to one and to all
That echoed and rolled like the thunder.
Trumpets and drums, roar upon roar
More upon more.
Rolling the call of "Come now to war."

Throughout the night they fashioned their might
With right on the side of the mighty.
They puzzled their minds plan upon plan
Man upon man
And at dying of dawn the great war began.

They met on the battlefield banner in hand.
They looked out across the vacant land.
And they counted the missing, one upon one,
None upon none.
The war it was over before it begun.

Two little kings playing a game.
They gave a war and nobody came.
And nobody came.
And nobody came.
And nobody came.
And nobody came.

Yep


That is indeed the way to identify EVIL. (If you are inclined to use that term.)

You will know it by its DEEDS.

Many will claim to be righteous, and yet when you see their deeds, you know they are not.

The Catholic Church has a long and violent and gruesome past and all protestant denominations come from that same Church, some better, some not.

In my opinion, you cannot separate yourself from that evil. You can make excuses, you can blame individuals but as long as you call yourself part of that, your are part of that.

Men have always hid behind religion. Men created religion. There has has always been an "evil" infiltration in the Church. Not to say that there were not some good people there too, but the foundation, the core, the top of the power structure ..... not good.

You can know the evil by their deeds.