Doesn't he? Doesn't it say in the Christian manual that Rulers and laws of a social order are to be respected? Isn't that how the Divine Right of Kings got started?

In other words, no person or group of people can judge the actions of the Ruler because the Ruler acts as god wants the Ruler to act. So it may seem that the Ruler is "doing evil" but it is actually all being done in accordance with god's plan. Right?

That sounds logical considering other parts of the bible that warn people not to judge other - obviouly because people don't always understand what godly purpose underpins the actions of others. Right?

The other thing to consider here is, can a perfect God create imperfect people? That is to say, if God created all of creation, including us perfectly, than surely He had to know we'd be the way we are. A perfect creator does not make mistakes in his creation.

On that basis alone, I would contend that we are as God intended us to be, in all of our human flaws and mistakes. If we weren't, than God is not perfect, and is in fact fallible because He created an imperfect creation.

So basically it comes down to, is God perfect or not? If He is as everyone says He is, than the world as it is has to be just as he intended it. Otherwise by simple logic he cannot be perfect.

The universe and the universal law is as God intended it to be.
We are who we are.
We have free will and we are co-creators of this, our world.
We are not perfect.

Hence, our world is not perfect.

We are creators in training. Very obvious and simple.

WHAT,,, our world isn't perfect.

Bummer did you have to tell me that..

The world is as He intended and He is perfect. Don't see the problem...

Ok so then he has no right to punish anyone for being as they are created. Because he made us this way. This is the problem, we are punished for something that we cannot help.

The idea that man could fall from perfection, means God cannot be perfect because he created a fallen creation. He would be responsible for making us with the propensity to sin, it wouldn't be our fault.

It's simply not logical to say God is perfect, and then blame us for acting as we were made to act, because obviously a perfect God intended it to be this way, otherwise he would not be perfect.

Oh stop whining and complaining.

God does not punish you. You punish yourself for what you create.
You have free will and every molecule of your being has free will.

You live according to the universal laws of creation and you create your own experiences and that includes heaven, hell and everything in between.

What you are arguing is the orthodox religious notions. If you don't believe that stuff then move on and get over it. Let them have their own concepts of God and move on.

That's my advice. Unless of course you just want to hang around at that point and argue with that state of consciousness.

If you want to argue from their premise of God and make statements like "He has no right to punish anyone..." If I were inclined to argue from their point of view I would say God is God and he has a right to do what ever he wants.



You just want to argue.

Everything is as God intended. He intended you to create your own life. If its not perfect and if you are not perfect, that is your doing.

Jeannie you are misunderstanding me. I KNOW everything is as God as intended, I am not trying to dispute that. What I AM disputing is the notion that God would create us, and then even knowing we were going to act a certain way, punish us anyway as the religious would have you believe. The whole fall from grace thing.

I know we have free will, I know we manifest our own realities here, I know all of that. I am simply arguing that a God would make us the way we are, and then get mad at us for acting as such, makes no sense.

You are absolutely right it makes no sense.

But...it really makes no sense to try to convince anyone who believes in the orthodox religious Christian dogma that what they are trying to sell makes no sense.

You know it doesn't make sense, I know it doesn't make sense, Abra knows it doesn't make sense, so why dwell on it? Who cares? I certainly don't.

They will believe what they believe. What's the point of telling them that what they believe "makes no sense?" That is just insulting to them, and it is a waste of time and effort, in my opinion.

They really aren't trying to force us to believe as they do. They are only trying to convince us. Do you doubt that what they are saying is wrong? Do you think for one second that they may be right? If not, then put it out of your mind and move on to the seeking of a more sensible nature of reality.

What makes sense to you? Find that. Don't dwell and waste time on things that don't make sense. That is like taking two steps backwards. Spiritual ascension is at hand. If you seek the truth look within yourself, it is there.

You are one of the most aware and well informed people on this club. There is more to learn. Unless your purpose is to try to destroy and unravel other people's faith, find your own.

That's just my (unasked for) advice. You can tell me to go to hell if you want. But I see a lot of myself in you.

We are usually slow to change, but time is running short.. change is at hand. Ask for enlightenment and you will get it.