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| Topic: Is this reality an imaginary place? | |
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Jeannie wrote: "It apparently does not exist until it is observed" ...... Jeannie, Just because it does not APPEAR to exist until it is observed , doesn't mean it does not exist. Quantum physics never said " it" does not EXIST until observed....... quantum physics says it does Not APPEAR( cannot be seen) until it is observed.  Good example OF Quantum physics is found in the bible: "Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for and the EVIDENCE of things UNSEEN(not yet seen)." When an electron isn't being looked at, experimental findings suggest that it is always a wave. Physicists are able to draw this conclusion because they have devised clever strategies for deducing how an electron behaves when it is not being observed. (It should be noted that this is only one interpretation of the evidence and is not the conclusion of all physicists.) Bohm has a different interpretation. how did they know if they weren't looking at it? They devised clever strategies for deducing how an electron behaves when it is not being observed. No I don't know what those "clever strategies were. I'm not a scientist. I'm sure it is well documented in science journals. lol they pretended not to look at it... 
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Jeannie wrote: "It apparently does not exist until it is observed" ...... Jeannie, Just because it does not APPEAR to exist until it is observed , doesn't mean it does not exist. Quantum physics never said " it" does not EXIST until observed....... quantum physics says it does Not APPEAR( cannot be seen) until it is observed. Good example OF Quantum physics is found in the bible: "Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for and the EVIDENCE of things UNSEEN(not yet seen)." When an electron isn't being looked at, experimental findings suggest that it is always a wave. Physicists are able to draw this conclusion because they have devised clever strategies for deducing how an electron behaves when it is not being observed. (It should be noted that this is only one interpretation of the evidence and is not the conclusion of all physicists.) Bohm has a different interpretation. how did they know if they weren't looking at it? They devised clever strategies for deducing how an electron behaves when it is not being observed. No I don't know what those "clever strategies were. I'm not a scientist. I'm sure it is well documented in science journals. lol they pretended not to look at it... I don't know. I would like to know. Anybody else know? |
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Jeannie wrote: "It apparently does not exist until it is observed" ...... Jeannie, Just because it does not APPEAR to exist until it is observed , doesn't mean it does not exist. Quantum physics never said " it" does not EXIST until observed....... quantum physics says it does Not APPEAR( cannot be seen) until it is observed. Good example OF Quantum physics is found in the bible: "Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for and the EVIDENCE of things UNSEEN(not yet seen)." When an electron isn't being looked at, experimental findings suggest that it is always a wave. Physicists are able to draw this conclusion because they have devised clever strategies for deducing how an electron behaves when it is not being observed. (It should be noted that this is only one interpretation of the evidence and is not the conclusion of all physicists.) Bohm has a different interpretation. how did they know if they weren't looking at it? They devised clever strategies for deducing how an electron behaves when it is not being observed. No I don't know what those "clever strategies were. I'm not a scientist. I'm sure it is well documented in science journals. lol they pretended not to look at it... After being tricked by the scientists, an electron wearing a large red hunters cap clearly exclaimed "Those wascally phythicistths!" |
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So reality basically would not exist if there were no observers. Let's assume that's true. So Soandso builds a telescope and first sees Pluto. Why does Pluto exist? It comes into existence when Soandso looks at it, who designed the universe so that Pluto would exist when Soandso looked in the right place? It is true at the quantum level, but that is very tiny. The same things do not apply at this gigantic scale. |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Sun 05/08/11 10:09 PM
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there's so much more to quantum physics that hasn't
even been touched on yet |
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Jeannie wrote: "It apparently does not exist until it is observed" ...... Jeannie, Just because it does not APPEAR to exist until it is observed , doesn't mean it does not exist. Quantum physics never said " it" does not EXIST until observed....... quantum physics says it does Not APPEAR( cannot be seen) until it is observed. Good example OF Quantum physics is found in the bible: "Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for and the EVIDENCE of things UNSEEN(not yet seen)." When an electron isn't being looked at, experimental findings suggest that it is always a wave. Physicists are able to draw this conclusion because they have devised clever strategies for deducing how an electron behaves when it is not being observed. (It should be noted that this is only one interpretation of the evidence and is not the conclusion of all physicists.) Bohm has a different interpretation. "When an electron isn't being looked at, experimental findings suggest that it is always a wave." True, but until SEEN or OBSERVED, there at least WAS a WAVE. Something Did exist first... in this instance, a wave. (most likely the evidence of waves were recorded and caught on video taping) But a wave is not a particle. They were hoping to find the building block of all matter in the form of a tiny particle they could measure, but they found nothing really. They can't even "see" the particle. Just something that acts like a particle when they attempt to observe it. Then when they are not observing it, it acts like a wave. It doesn't really exist in either form that they can actually see or measure. So we are back to reality being an illusion or a dream or a hologram. |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Sun 05/08/11 11:29 PM
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Want to know and understand more about Quantum physics ( of
course, just an umbrella term that starts with quantum mechanics , and advances from there on )...... then Take a look at the book of Genesis. Read and study at how God created the world..and everything else. PS....out of respect for this being the science/philosophy forum,I make this my final post here. |
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Jeannie wrote: "It apparently does not exist until it is observed" ...... Jeannie, Just because it does not APPEAR to exist until it is observed , doesn't mean it does not exist. Quantum physics never said " it" does not EXIST until observed....... quantum physics says it does Not APPEAR( cannot be seen) until it is observed. Good example OF Quantum physics is found in the bible: "Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for and the EVIDENCE of things UNSEEN(not yet seen)." When an electron isn't being looked at, experimental findings suggest that it is always a wave. Physicists are able to draw this conclusion because they have devised clever strategies for deducing how an electron behaves when it is not being observed. (It should be noted that this is only one interpretation of the evidence and is not the conclusion of all physicists.) Bohm has a different interpretation. "When an electron isn't being looked at, experimental findings suggest that it is always a wave." True, but until SEEN or OBSERVED, there at least WAS a WAVE. Something Did exist first... in this instance, a wave. (most likely the evidence of waves were recorded and caught on video taping) But a wave is not a particle. They were hoping to find the building block of all matter in the form of a tiny particle they could measure, but they found nothing really. They can't even "see" the particle. Just something that acts like a particle when they attempt to observe it. Then when they are not observing it, it acts like a wave. It doesn't really exist in either form that they can actually see or measure. So we are back to reality being an illusion or a dream or a hologram. Light can be scientifically measure to be either a wave or a particle. It can be proven to be both. |
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This is a variation of "If a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?" I say it does! Just becasue I am not there to hear it making a sound I can surmise from the sounds other trees have made when they fall while I was present to not discount the reality that a sound is made irrespective of me being there or not. Now to confuse the sauce, I present the Meson. This is a particle that is supposed to travel back in time becasue it travels faster than the speed of light. With that in mind you cannot have them if they are not generated so one MUST begin the act of creating them to have them appear before you made them. How does this work? You build a Meson generator and a detector. before you actually press the button the mesons appear and them you press the button. You cannot have then unless the button is actually pressed. Einstein's physics says if an object travels to the of the traveler sees a streak as the traveler passes them but in all reality they see time flow as they normally would. For the traveler though as they approach the speed of light time for the observer relative to them observing time outside of their craft would seem that time begins to slow down for them. In a way it is similar to a plane flying faster than the speed of sound where the Speed of Light traveler actually would manage to catch up to the wave of time. BUT once you hit the speed of light time is supposed to stop. So what happens if you manage to exceed the speed of light? Well, so far what we can detect of Mesons they appear to do just that and in doing so seem to go faster than time appearing before they are birthed. That is incorrect. They appear and then go backwards in time appearing as if they appeared then are generated. So in Einsteinian physics as an object approaches the speed of light its mass is supposed to approach infinite. It is supposed to be a counterbalancing or "Drag Force" but that implies that mass is not absolute but changeable. This is a paradox since all mass is determined by a material's atomic structure. Since mass cannot technically increase for a given body this ideal smacks of the Infinite improbability Drive where an Object approaching the speed of light becomes an Infinite mass therefore becoming all of the universe for a brief moment. That means you are everywhere at once. if that were true we actually could be on the verge of space travel in a way we didn't before think possible. What do I mean? Let us say we want to see Arcturus which is 37 light years away. Well we get on board our ship and get off of the earth to a safe distance so let us say it takes 2 hours to reach our jump point. In the mean time our computer is calculating our jump so when we get to where we are going we flip a switch and POOF! (Or Sparkle Sparkle Sparkle BLINK) there we are approaching the star Arcturus. 37 light years just that fast! THAT IS THE WAY TO TRAVEL SPACE! the ship stays in the same place, it just moves the universe around it... 
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mylifetoday wrote: Light can be scientifically measure to be either a wave or a particle. It can be proven to be both. That's not exactly correct. It can never be proven to be "both" simultaneously. Given any single experiment you can only prove it to be one or the other. The CHOICE is yours. And the outcome of what you measure will indeed depend on which aspect you choose to measure. If you choose to measure a wave, you'll see a wave. If you choose to measure a particle, you'll see a particle. But you can never measure both wave and particle simultaneously. That is forbidden by the laws of nature. So in this sense you "create" the universe by how you choose to measure it, or observe it. It's like anything else, say like playing baseball for example. When you get up to bat you can either make a hit, or you can strike out. But you can't do both simultaneously. So you go up to the plate and do the experiment. If you witness the hit, then that's what you've created. You are then a "hitter". If you witness yourself striking out, then that's what you've created. You are a "loser". But you can't create them both simultaneously. You are both "hitter" and "looser" in the infinite field of potentiality. Just like light is both a wave and a particle in the infinite field of potentiality. You can bring one of those potentials into reality, but you can't bring them both into realize simultaneously. So in a sense, the principles of the quantum world are far more "real" in our everyday lives than most people are even remotely aware of. You create your reality every moment of your life. Just as scientists decide whether to see waves or particles. Everything is in a state of potentiality and you bring a state of potentiality into reality every time you observe something to be the outcome of a multi-potential event. Once it's been observed there's no putting it back into the field of potentiality. It has then become a "recorded event" and will forever remain as a part of "reality". |
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Is this reality an imaginary place?
Yes if you want it to be and No if you don't want it to be. Choose what pleases you the most. Thank you and have a great day! :) |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Mon 05/09/11 02:50 AM
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Want to know and understand more about Quantum physics ( of course, just an umbrella term that starts with quantum mechanics , and advances from there on )...... then Take a look at the book of Genesis. Read and study at how God created the world..and everything else. PS....out of respect for this being the science/philosophy forum,I make this my final post here. Meant to include the links(below) in my earlier post.  http://www.reasons.org/resources/non-staff-papers/the-metaphysics-of-quantum-mechanics http://www.reasons.org/whats-new/latest-resources http://blogs.christianpost.com/creationvsevolution/2009/07/does-string-theory-confirm-the-bible-01/ |
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mylifetoday wrote: Light can be scientifically measure to be either a wave or a particle. It can be proven to be both. That's not exactly correct. It can never be proven to be "both" simultaneously. Given any single experiment you can only prove it to be one or the other. The CHOICE is yours. And the outcome of what you measure will indeed depend on which aspect you choose to measure. If you choose to measure a wave, you'll see a wave. If you choose to measure a particle, you'll see a particle. But you can never measure both wave and particle simultaneously. That is forbidden by the laws of nature. So in this sense you "create" the universe by how you choose to measure it, or observe it. It's like anything else, say like playing baseball for example. When you get up to bat you can either make a hit, or you can strike out. But you can't do both simultaneously. So you go up to the plate and do the experiment. If you witness the hit, then that's what you've created. You are then a "hitter". If you witness yourself striking out, then that's what you've created. You are a "loser". But you can't create them both simultaneously. You are both "hitter" and "looser" in the infinite field of potentiality. Just like light is both a wave and a particle in the infinite field of potentiality. You can bring one of those potentials into reality, but you can't bring them both into realize simultaneously. So in a sense, the principles of the quantum world are far more "real" in our everyday lives than most people are even remotely aware of. You create your reality every moment of your life. Just as scientists decide whether to see waves or particles. Everything is in a state of potentiality and you bring a state of potentiality into reality every time you observe something to be the outcome of a multi-potential event. Once it's been observed there's no putting it back into the field of potentiality. It has then become a "recorded event" and will forever remain as a part of "reality". Thanks for the clarification Abra. I knew this. Just gave the five cent tour before. That is a big point I left out. Can't be measured to be both at once. |
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This is a variation of "If a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?" I say it does! Just becasue I am not there to hear it making a sound I can surmise from the sounds other trees have made when they fall while I was present to not discount the reality that a sound is made irrespective of me being there or not. Now to confuse the sauce, I present the Meson. This is a particle that is supposed to travel back in time becasue it travels faster than the speed of light. With that in mind you cannot have them if they are not generated so one MUST begin the act of creating them to have them appear before you made them. How does this work? You build a Meson generator and a detector. before you actually press the button the mesons appear and them you press the button. You cannot have then unless the button is actually pressed. Einstein's physics says if an object travels to the of the traveler sees a streak as the traveler passes them but in all reality they see time flow as they normally would. For the traveler though as they approach the speed of light time for the observer relative to them observing time outside of their craft would seem that time begins to slow down for them. In a way it is similar to a plane flying faster than the speed of sound where the Speed of Light traveler actually would manage to catch up to the wave of time. BUT once you hit the speed of light time is supposed to stop. So what happens if you manage to exceed the speed of light? Well, so far what we can detect of Mesons they appear to do just that and in doing so seem to go faster than time appearing before they are birthed. That is incorrect. They appear and then go backwards in time appearing as if they appeared then are generated. So in Einsteinian physics as an object approaches the speed of light its mass is supposed to approach infinite. It is supposed to be a counterbalancing or "Drag Force" but that implies that mass is not absolute but changeable. This is a paradox since all mass is determined by a material's atomic structure. Since mass cannot technically increase for a given body this ideal smacks of the Infinite improbability Drive where an Object approaching the speed of light becomes an Infinite mass therefore becoming all of the universe for a brief moment. That means you are everywhere at once. if that were true we actually could be on the verge of space travel in a way we didn't before think possible. What do I mean? Let us say we want to see Arcturus which is 37 light years away. Well we get on board our ship and get off of the earth to a safe distance so let us say it takes 2 hours to reach our jump point. In the mean time our computer is calculating our jump so when we get to where we are going we flip a switch and POOF! (Or Sparkle Sparkle Sparkle BLINK) there we are approaching the star Arcturus. 37 light years just that fast! THAT IS THE WAY TO TRAVEL SPACE! the ship stays in the same place, it just moves the universe around it... haha, i was wondering if anyone would know that... 
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...One More I Wanted to Share Earlier....
 http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2000/PSCF3-00Zoeller-Greer.html.ori |
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...One More I Wanted to Share Earlier.... http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2000/PSCF3-00Zoeller-Greer.html.ori Interesting logic but I have a question concerning this: Wouldn't God be counted as a conscious observer? Remember that the Scully experiment teaches us that the past (of the electron's decision about "how" to unite at the semi-transparent mirror) was created during its observation in the present. But we also understand that this reconstruction of the past leads us to more than one possibility. The past's reality "happens" while it is being observed in the present, and the kind of observation even determines what the past looked like. But according to the Bible, the creation of humans was the "last" event of the creation period, so this was the first time a conscious observer came into being. This is important to remember.
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mylifetoday wrote: Thanks for the clarification Abra. I knew this. Just gave the five cent tour before. That is a big point I left out. Can't be measured to be both at once. It' not merely just a "big point" it's basically "The Foundational Point" of quantum mechanics in general. It's the basis of Complementarity. It was the basis of the Borh-Einstein debates culminating in the EPR experiments. It's been mathematically addressed and proven by John Stewart Bell in Bell's Theorem. It's been mathematically verified by the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. It's basically the HEART of quantum mechanics. It's the reason for entropy and the arrow of time. It's the reason why you can't strike-out and hit a home run in the same "turn". It's the reason why every choice we make "creates" reality like the wake of a boat. (i.e. Karma)  Take away the principle of Complementarity from this universe and you destroy the entire fabric of space-time itself, perhaps with a special emphasis on the "time" aspect of this fabric. So yes, not being able to measure both at the same time is indeed a very "Big Point". |
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Remember that the Scully experiment teaches us that the past (of the electron's decision about "how" to unite at the semi-transparent mirror) was created during its observation in the present. But we also understand that this reconstruction of the past leads us to more than one possibility. The past's reality "happens" while it is being observed in the present, and the kind of observation even determines what the past looked like. But according to the Bible, the creation of humans was the "last" event of the creation period, so this was the first time a conscious observer came into being. This is important to remember. Moulder didn't like it when they did experiments on Sculley... it interfered with his porn time... |
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If reality is "created" during the process of observation (Copenhagen Interpretation" given by Niels Bohr in the 1920s.)the problem of how a universe could exist without an observer is unsolvable.
In this case, some scientists conclude that there has to be an observer "outside" the universe. Conclusion: We are being observed.  |
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If reality is "created" during the process of observation (Copenhagen Interpretation" given by Niels Bohr in the 1920s.)the problem of how a universe could exist without an observer is unsolvable. In this case, some scientists conclude that there has to be an observer "outside" the universe. Conclusion: We are being observed. Jeannie, you're such a Jeanius!  At least that's my observation.  So according to Niels Bohr I guess that makes it reality.
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