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| Topic: Are YOU in Danger? | |
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But that's the whole basis of Christianity. We must condone the crucifixion of Jesus to pay for our sins! and where is this written? aknowledging,accepting, and condoning are not the same If I were fertile, I would probably have to ACCEPT it,, that wouldnt mean I was happy or supportive of it, let alone condoning it,,,just aknowledging the REALITY of it |
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Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins" (Matthew 26:27-28).
...before the crucifixion and in reacting to the crucifixion,,this,, Father forgive them, for they know not what they do (Luke 23:34). he died, asking for us to be forgiven,,, |
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Cowboy wrote:
God condemns no one. The natural way of life is as follows Birth ----- grow old ----- die God offers eternal life through Jesus. That's not true unless you are prepared to support atheism and evolution. What you just said above is actually a lie according to the religion that you support. The natrual way of life is as follows: God creates Adam from dust, and creates Eve from Adam's rib. Adam and Eve are IMMORTAL! They "fall from Grace", and God condemns them to death! So if you want to support these fables you need to stick to them and stop running off trying to use the atheists view of evolution. Your God condemns people to death. Period. That's the story Cowboy unless you want to go back and rewrite it. "Death is the wages of sin", you preached that yourself for months. Now you're trying to claim that death is merely the natural way of life. 
Your excuses for these stories never cease to amuse me. The picture of God that you support is a picture of a God of condemnation. That's the biblical story Cowboy. A God who must be appeased or he will condemn you! 
This was the standard fear that humans have always had. They have always felt that they must appease the gods lest the god become angry and condemn them. Religion = superstition and fear. Truly. Especially religions that have Gods who will condemn people for merely not believing in them. 
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Cowboy wrote:
God condemns no one. The natural way of life is as follows Birth ----- grow old ----- die God offers eternal life through Jesus. That's not true unless you are prepared to support atheism and evolution. What you just said above is actually a lie according to the religion that you support. The natrual way of life is as follows: God creates Adam from dust, and creates Eve from Adam's rib. Adam and Eve are IMMORTAL! They "fall from Grace", and God condemns them to death! So if you want to support these fables you need to stick to them and stop running off trying to use the atheists view of evolution. Your God condemns people to death. Period. That's the story Cowboy unless you want to go back and rewrite it. "Death is the wages of sin", you preached that yourself for months. Now you're trying to claim that death is merely the natural way of life.
Your excuses for these stories never cease to amuse me. The picture of God that you support is a picture of a God of condemnation. That's the biblical story Cowboy. A God who must be appeased or he will condemn you!
This was the standard fear that humans have always had. They have always felt that they must appease the gods lest the god become angry and condemn them. Religion = superstition and fear. Truly. Especially religions that have Gods who will condemn people for merely not believing in them.
condemnation is rejection(in my opinion) if some are rejecting God, arent they saying they want nothing to do with HIM and not the other way around? |
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MsHarmony wrote:
If I were fertile, I would probably have to ACCEPT it,, that wouldnt mean I was happy or supportive of it, let alone condoning it,,,just aknowledging the REALITY of it That's a moot point. You aren't God. If you were an all-powerful omniscient God, then if you were fertile it would only be because you CHOSE to be fertile. In the same way, if Jesus was crucified it can only be because God chose to have Jesus crucified. Anything less and God has no control over the situation and could not be said to be omniscient. So you can't compare yourself with God. There's no comparison. God doesn't need to "accept" REALITY. God supposedly CREATES reality at his whim. |
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Jesus taught Judaism not Christianity. There is nothing in Jesus teachings which is at odds with the Old Testament in any way. Including forgiveness and unconditional love, the golden rule, etc. etc. Basically all monotheistic religions are talking about the same God and it is pretty much ridiculous to say that one of the religions is better than another based on "how" one worships this single deity. Moreover, this single Abrahamic God for example is completely consistent with pantheism and Buddhism ~ so be good, prosper and enjoy this life. 
Moreover, this single Abrahamic God for example is completely consistent with pantheism and Buddhism ~ so be good, prosper and enjoy this life Christianity doesn't support pantheism. Jesus and God are one, yes. That doesn't mean you, me, and God are one. Ridiculous. There is nothing in Christianity which opposes pantheism - the idea that God and the Universe are one and the same. Christianity believes God to be a separate being from the human race, pantheism believes the human race is God. God is with us yes, but we are not God himself as pantheism believes. You just don't understand Christianity and pantheism. God is not separate from us but a part of us as we are a part of God. Pantheism is completely fine with this. Pantheism does not imply we believe we are Gods but only part of something bigger. The God of the Hebrews and Muslims is also the God of Jesus which if you are monotheistic is the SAME God. So worship God and be one with the Universe. You cannot separate yourself from God nor does Christianity think you should....rather you should commune with God. The same God as Jesus' and Mohammad and Abraham's God. The only God. The one which may be thought of as encompassing the Universe. 
When you are in the sea it is pointless to try to erect walls to separate yourself from the world... |
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Edited by
msharmony
on
Sun 05/01/11 01:07 PM
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MsHarmony wrote:
If I were fertile, I would probably have to ACCEPT it,, that wouldnt mean I was happy or supportive of it, let alone condoning it,,,just aknowledging the REALITY of it That's a moot point. You aren't God. If you were an all-powerful omniscient God, then if you were fertile it would only be because you CHOSE to be fertile. In the same way, if Jesus was crucified it can only be because God chose to have Jesus crucified. Anything less and God has no control over the situation and could not be said to be omniscient. So you can't compare yourself with God. There's no comparison. God doesn't need to "accept" REALITY. God supposedly CREATES reality at his whim. because God can, does not mean God DOES,,, If God did indeed JUST create each moment , we would certainly be living in paradise NOW, and although God can and I Believe has intervened,, he is under no obligation(by my beliefs anyhow) to do so or else there would be no point to giving us choices,,he would just direct us through every moment like some body with a remote control robot, whether we wished him to or not but he gives us the CHOICE of having his guidance, of accepting his guidance,,, HE chose to send the word in the flesh, most likely yes HE chose to allow the flesh to perish, most likely yes HE chose to resurrect the word and bring him back HOME to be at his side,,, most likely yes whether he CHOSE The method, can be disputed, but that was certainly the method MAN had come up with at that time,,like the method of the electric chair which we now use,,, |
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Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins" (Matthew 26:27-28). ...before the crucifixion and in reacting to the crucifixion,,this,, Father forgive them, for they know not what they do (Luke 23:34). he died, asking for us to be forgiven,,, No. He did not ask for "us" to be forgiven. Do you support the crucifixion of Jesus? If you don't, then this would not have applied to you and you have no reason to consider yourself to be part of that mob. This is yet another absurd notion of Christianity. They act like everyone would condone or partake in a given situation. When I read the part in the Bible where Jesus was stopping the people from stoning the sinner woman at the well, the first thing that came to my mind is that I would NOT have been part of the mob who was trying to stone her to death in the first place. Thus the whole entire parable would not even have applied to me. I would have been Jesus in that parable! Although I might not have been clever enough to think to tell these guys that the man among them who is without sin should cast the first stone. But I certainly would have stood up for the woman and opposed the mob. In fact, I have indeed done similar things in my life as it is. So this notion that Jesus was asking God to forgive "us" for his crucifixion is nonsense. "We" didn't crucify him! Moreover, do you honestly think that Jesus himself would have to point out the OBVIOUS to God? "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34). So are we to believe that either God was too stupid to figure this out on his own? Or that Jesus was a fool, and that God actually knew better that these people did indeed know what they were doing. Either way it doesn't look good. Either Jesus thinks that God can't make a righteous judgment on his own, or Jesus himself was foolishly wrong in thinking that they were innocent. So these kinds of verses aren't impressive to me. They just add more contradictions to the mix. ~~~~~~ PLUS! And try to think about this for a moment,... If Jesus was totally prepared to FORGIVE the people who were actively crucifying him to a pole, how much MORE would he be willing to FORGIVE someone for merely not believing that he was the son of God. Here you guys expect us to believe that Jesus is prepared to forgive people who are in the middle of crucifying him, yet you expect us to believe that he will have no mercy on people who simply don't believe in these stories. ~~~~~ So here we have Jesus standing at the gate of heaven. No one can pass through this gate without Jesus' approval. A Roman pagan centurion who had nailed Jesus to the cross comes up to the gate and asks if he may enter. Jesus says, "Oh by all means, I forgive you for you know not what you've done". The Roman pagan centurion happily enters God's paradise. Then an atheist who spent her entire life supporting human rights, animal rights, and a healthy ecology and planet comes up to Jesus and asked if she may enter. Jesus say, "Sorry, but you didn't believe in me, you have to go to hell". Yeah right.
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MsHarmony wrote:
If I were fertile, I would probably have to ACCEPT it,, that wouldnt mean I was happy or supportive of it, let alone condoning it,,,just aknowledging the REALITY of it That's a moot point. You aren't God. If you were an all-powerful omniscient God, then if you were fertile it would only be because you CHOSE to be fertile. In the same way, if Jesus was crucified it can only be because God chose to have Jesus crucified. Anything less and God has no control over the situation and could not be said to be omniscient. So you can't compare yourself with God. There's no comparison. God doesn't need to "accept" REALITY. God supposedly CREATES reality at his whim. because God can, does not mean God DOES,,, If God did indeed JUST create each moment , we would certainly be living in paradise NOW, and although God can and I Believe has intervened,, he is under no obligation(by my beliefs anyhow) to do so or else there would be no point to giving us choices,,he would just direct us through every moment like some body with a remote control robot, whether we wished him to or not but he gives us the CHOICE of having his guidance, of accepting his guidance,,,, It isn't much of a choice, if you are directed you MUST choose this in order to be saved, with no wiggle room. How is that not trying to make us into mindless robots? Your own belief system says we are to follow strictly these certain things, and anything that deviates from it is automatically wrong. Doesn't seem like much of the mind is used to me....... If we really do have a choice, it would be much more free than that. God gave us a mind, why wouldn't He want us to use it? To love Him and make our decisions because we WANT to, and not because we feel we have no choice? That seems more likely of a loving God than what religion paints. I mean if God is as great as we are told He is, surely He knows the best way to reach us, and what is best for all of us. Is religion really that? Somehow I don't think so, if WE can recognize the flaws and evils in it, do you think an all knowing creator wouldn't? If it didn't, what would that say of it? |
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there is always a choice, that is how we get through life
it isnt always the choices(options) that we want or desire, but the options are there |
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Edited by
Kleisto
on
Sun 05/01/11 01:41 PM
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there is always a choice, that is how we get through life it isnt always the choices(options) that we want or desire, but the options are there But are these choices just or fair? Again, if WE know there is something wrong, surely God does. If He doesn't, He's not divine. |
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there is always a choice, that is how we get through life it isnt always the choices(options) that we want or desire, but the options are there But are these choices just or fair? Again, if WE know there is something wrong, surely God does. If He doesn't, He's not divine, or at least the Biblical God isn't. I believe them to be just, yes. |
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there is always a choice, that is how we get through life it isnt always the choices(options) that we want or desire, but the options are there But are these choices just or fair? Again, if WE know there is something wrong, surely God does. If He doesn't, He's not divine, or at least the Biblical God isn't. I believe them to be just, yes. Well then I don't think you're really paying close enough attention quite frankly. |
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Edited by
Kleisto
on
Sun 05/01/11 01:44 PM
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To go one bit further, if everything that happens is predestined, including who lives or dies, as your religion says, then we CANNOT have any choice in what happens. We are simply playing out a script. Is this really the design of a loving God?
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there is always a choice, that is how we get through life it isnt always the choices(options) that we want or desire, but the options are there But are these choices just or fair? Again, if WE know there is something wrong, surely God does. If He doesn't, He's not divine, or at least the Biblical God isn't. I believe them to be just, yes. Well then I don't think you're really paying close enough attention quite frankly. Im not hurt, I feel I pay very close attention, its necessary to do so in order to seperate context, tradition, fables, laws, and history,, all included in the bible |
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To go one bit further, if everything that happens is predestined, including who lives or dies, as your religion says, then we CANNOT have any choice in what happens. We are simply playing out a script. Is this really the design of a loving God? I dont believe it is, no. I think every path has a destination and we each have several paths layed before us to choose from, and as we choose the path , the (predetermined) destination of that path is where we will end up,,,UNLESSS we diverge from that path somewhere along the line and start down some other,,, |
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MsHarmony wrote:
If I were fertile, I would probably have to ACCEPT it,, that wouldnt mean I was happy or supportive of it, let alone condoning it,,,just aknowledging the REALITY of it That's a moot point. You aren't God. If you were an all-powerful omniscient God, then if you were fertile it would only be because you CHOSE to be fertile. In the same way, if Jesus was crucified it can only be because God chose to have Jesus crucified. Anything less and God has no control over the situation and could not be said to be omniscient. So you can't compare yourself with God. There's no comparison. God doesn't need to "accept" REALITY. God supposedly CREATES reality at his whim. because God can, does not mean God DOES,,, If God did indeed JUST create each moment , we would certainly be living in paradise NOW, and although God can and I Believe has intervened,, he is under no obligation(by my beliefs anyhow) to do so or else there would be no point to giving us choices,,he would just direct us through every moment like some body with a remote control robot, whether we wished him to or not but he gives us the CHOICE of having his guidance, of accepting his guidance,,, HE chose to send the word in the flesh, most likely yes HE chose to allow the flesh to perish, most likely yes HE chose to resurrect the word and bring him back HOME to be at his side,,, most likely yes whether he CHOSE The method, can be disputed, but that was certainly the method MAN had come up with at that time,,like the method of the electric chair which we now use,,, The quote above is a position many Christians take but they do so without imagining all the choices for which no clear answers are provided in ‘the manual’. If the manual is so difficult a tool to use that it requires a highly educated individual to interpret its meaning for another person’s situations then the tool is a KING MAKER for its purpose is to keep followers in line. If, however, the manual does have the answers as the form of [his guidance] then why are so many believers tortured over the choices they must make in their lives? BELOW ARE FICTICIOUS SCENARIOS My child is very ill, perhaps has rare form of leukemia, or AIDS from a blood transfusion, and the doctors say that only very expensive and intensive medical protocols will save the child’s life. More about me and the situation: I am a staunch Christian, my husband a pastor/preacher from a long line of the same. I have a job and family health insurance benefits and we have five children. Family discussions tend to agree that faith is the best treatment the child can receive. I have actually considered the fact that even with health insurance there is no way our family could afford the treatment but now I wonder – did that have anything to do with the decision we made for NOT to treat the child? I report to my husband that I am Fearful that I’m not fit to make this decision. One of the teenagers overhears our discussion and barges into the room yelling “you have to treat her” and then the father tries to calm her saying “No, this is a test our faith” … and then he starts chanting bible passages to justify his case. Days pass, the sick child becomes sicker, the teenager hates to come home, and the family gathers to say prayers. Ok – I gotta stop, there must be more than enough situational type choices that have to made, tell me … what does your manual say about all this? Keep in mind that the manual must provide [Guidance] which will be the same for EVERY situation that is exactly like this one. But how many situations are exactly like this one? Change some things, even minutely and the choices change and the justifications change, for example – say the child did not have the same amount of faith as her parents and was so sick she just wanted to be better and kept asking to go to the hospital. What does the manual say should be done – what “guidance” does it offer? NOW – There’s a point to be made, if every individual depended ONLY on their faith then there would be no right or wrong decisions because every individual would ‘believe’ that by their faith alone they cannot make a wrong decision. BUT –enter the manual – the manual has the law, it states what your choices should be and no matter the amount of faith you have – if your choice goes against the manual….. Your child could die, your family be broken and your hopes for eternity – dashed. So where are the answers in the manual that would take into account EVERY POSSIBLE nuance of every situation? How would any person possibly make heads or tails of the ten commandments as answers for such situations, and what about other ‘so-called’ laws or directives – I mean Jehovah Witnesses refuse blood transfusions “in accordance with the manual”. Well who’s not in accord and why? Is it ‘remotely possibly’ be that the manual does not provide the necessary knowledge with which to make the choices that will bring god’s mercy, or favorable judgment, upon you? If you see it as infallible tool then show me the above situations in the book and what the correct choices are suppose to be for each person who is involved in that situation? |
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More on the idea of an all inclusive manual. Consider that many believers, in the past, have had their children taken from them because they believed in faith healing – AND it was predominantly Christians who forced the action to take the children and treat them.
Why did they read their manual one way (basing their actions on their beliefs which were all about faith) while the only thing other Christians could offer was that we should not ALLOW people to die – at the same time ALL those Christians allow many millions to die of starvation when they everyone around them is wasting food and resources that could be used to feed those they ALLOW to die. Obviously the manual is flawed. Oh, I know it’s enough to say that humans are the ones who are flawed – but shouldn’t god have know and understood the limitations of his own creations and as least provided a user-guide that was easy to follow and ADAPTABLE for any future situations that could come up? |
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My sarcastic remark about having pictures of me and Sasquatch was in response to Umm.......ever heard of pictures.......x-rays? All of the things you mentioned are very very easily proven. Cause even with "pictures" one is still putting faith in that those pictures are legitament, are real, are true, are not created, ect. Those pictures are a hell of a lot more evidence than you have. Hell you don't even need pictures, you can look around and SEE how much of the earth is covered by water. I can? When I look around, I see dirt. I see no water. The only place I could go to, to see water is the river. And the river is only but maybe 20 foot wide and who knows how long. But nevertheless covers a very very small portion of the Earth. My suggestion to you would be to look intently into the distance in front of you and make a mental note of where the Earth ends and be careful to keep that end in sight so that you don’t walk to far and fall of the end of the world. |
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Cowboy wrote:
My sarcastic remark about having pictures of me and Sasquatch was in response to Umm.......ever heard of pictures.......x-rays? All of the things you mentioned are very very easily proven. Cause even with "pictures" one is still putting faith in that those pictures are legitament, are real, are true, are not created, ect. No kidding? That's precisely the point I was making Cowboy. It makes no sense to even try to converse with you because every point I ever make goes right over your head. It's was precisely your sarcasm that I was referring to. The POINT that you made with your sarcastic remark also applies to the Bible. In other words your "FAITH" in the Biblical stories has absolutely no more merit than someone's "FAITH" that Sasquatch exists. The fact that you were being sarcastic doesn't change the FACT that the very same thing applies to your "FAITH" in totally unsupportable stories of supernatural superstitious events that have been claimed by the authors of the Bible, yet have absolutely NO independent historical evidence beyond that. In fact, rumors of the Sasquatch probably have more independent historical evidence simply because more independent people have reported seeing one. However, even with that we don't give the Sasquatch much merit. The reason being that the reports simply aren't consistent enough nor high enough in number to be consider anything more than people's own superstition, imagination, and/or possible fraud. So is we actually apply your "sarcastic" remark to the Bible we can see the parallel. The Biblical writings don't even have as much independent historical background confirmation as do things like the Sasquatch or say the Loch Ness or UFOs and alien abductions. Yet most people do not believe in the Sasquatch, the Loch Ness, or UFOs and alien abductions. I'm just pointing out that your very own sarcasm actually applies to the very fables that you are attempting to claim must be true. Yet you have no more 'evidence' for the things that you claim "must be true" than exists for these other things that you sarcastically scoff at. As far as the rest of your post goes, I'm quite sure that if any God exists he/she/it/them does not hate anyone. However, that's irrelevant to the hateful picture of a fascist hateful God that YOU PAINT. The first thing you need to realize is that the so-called "God" that you create exist only in YOUR MIND. Just like Slowhand pointed out, you're not speaking of any actual "Jesus". All you're doing it creating your very own "Jesus" and trying to sell that marionette doll to everyone. Even if there were some truth to the writings of the Bible, many people (including many denominations of Christianity) would totally reject your personal extremist interpretations of those texts. So you have a very long way to go. First, you'd need to so convincing evidence that the biblical writings are even worthy of consideration as written (which no human being has ever been able to do to date), but then even that would only be a STARTING point for you. Then you'd be in the truly impossible position of having to convince everyone that Jesus thinks like YOU do when you decide to interpret those scriptures! I personally don't think you'd convince very many people of any such thing. I'm certain that you'd never convince me. Even if I had reasons to actually give those fables any merit (which I don't) I still wouldn't agree with YOUR interpretations. I personally feel that your interpretations are basically driven by your own personally need to make it appear that Jesus hates everyone who refuses to cower down to YOUR personal opinions. I've already shown where, even according to those texts themselves, Jesus himself would NOT support your views. So even if those stories were true, I would still hold out that you are an abomination to the very message that Jesus himself was attempting to teach. I disagree with your interpretations of these stories whether they are true or just fables. It's makes absolutely no difference at all. I still disagree with your obsession to use the Jesus character to support your religious bigotries and prejudices. Just like Slowhand pointed out, the Jesus that "You Create" is not the same Jesus that other people see in those same stories. You're "Jesus" is YOUR VERY OWN CREATION, whether he was a real character or not. So you have nothing going in your favor at all. That's precisely the point I was making Cowboy. It makes no sense to even try to converse with you because every point I ever make goes right over your head. It's was precisely your sarcasm that I was referring to. The POINT that you made with your sarcastic remark also applies to the Bible. In other words your "FAITH" in the Biblical stories has absolutely no more merit than someone's "FAITH" that Sasquatch exists. Yes again, everything is taken on faith. All knowledge except knowledge that effects you directly from a first-person point of view is taken on faith. Again, no one's trying to convince another that it's true. You make me laugh m8. We are again after again, just merely having a discussion on our different beliefs. No one's trying to change another's beliefs. Just here for conversation. Cowboy, children learn to follow simple instructions "Don't touch - hot" is one they learn. At some point the child actually begins to associate the word "hot" to other things. Yes the stove can be hot, and fire is hot - but the sidewalk can be hot too. They make that association all by themselves. What they didn't know was what the various sources of energy were that produced all that heat. If we take several years and explain to that child (called schooling) how the sun creates energy and how that energy gets to earth and heats the ground then the child KNOWS how the sidewalk gets hot. YOU might argue that the child takes all that 'knowledge' on faith - becasue we cannot possibly know how the Sun works, we have never even been there - and we cannot possibly know how seemingly invisable rays can possibly heat a sidewalk. If YOU argure thusly - I can only conclude that your education was severly lacking or that your ability to make logical assessments of situations by applying past accumulation of knowledge is either underdeveloped or has been severely compromised. But don't worry, it seems that some Christians believe god judges the uneducated and those whose capasity is limited (the wretched) by less severe standards. We love you no matter - kinda like we love everyone regardless of intellect, ability, or what sins they have committed - but of course we do, still, hate the sin even IF the sin was caused by a lack of education or limited capacity. |
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