Cowboy,

In a very real way, you and I aren't even in the same cerebral universe. Our perceptions of reality are so drastically different that it may very well be impossible for us to communicate ever.

You speak of "beliefs". I have no "beliefs" like you do. What you think of as my "beliefs" are more along the line of how Jeanniebean thinks. I only believe the obvious. The things that cannot be denied. For example, I AM. I believe that I AM. I experience existence and so I believe that I am having the experience.

I can even take that a bit further and speak about having a "belief" in the various things that I actually "experience", such as physical reality, gravity, etc.

Does this mean that I jump to predetermined conclusions about the actual "cause" of those experiences? No it does not. But I can "speculate" on what might be going on based on my absolute truth of actual "experience". This line of thinking, along with logic, reason, analysis, and evidence, leads to the scientific method of inquiry which is, to date, the most productive method of inquiry ever imagined by humankind. The fruits of this method of inquiry have indeed been "proven" via the very same "experiences" which is all we can ever actually know to be true with absolute certainty. (i.e. I AM, because I experience being, therefore my experience of being is what I AM)

That is the only "TRUTH" that we can ever be sure of.

I do not "believe" anything beyond that. However, I do have weighted plausibility arguments for things beyond that based on what I can indeed "experience".

You on the other hand live in a totally different cerebral universe. You "believe" in things on pure faith that you can't possible know, or even experience for that matter. Moreover, you try to sell you untenable "faith" to other people and attempt to claim that you faith = "TRUTH". When in fact, it doesn't. Or to put that in better terms, "If it does, it's purely by random chance".

Thus you hold out the notion that everything is merely based on FAITH alone, because that's how YOU THINK.

That my friend, does not fit into my world picture at all. My actual "beliefs" are not based on "faith" at all (as you continually suggest), but rather they are based on my direct experience. (i.e. I AM, and I know that I AM, because I experience).

Thus my experiences are directly related to the only TRUTH that I can indeed know: I AM.

However, what you keep referring to as "Your Truths" have absolutely no basis in anything but pure faith on your part. You may as well have pure faith in the story of Santa Claus, as to have pure faith in the story of Jesus. Neither of these stories are within the realm of your direct experience.

Thus to investigate these stories and weigh their plausibility you have no choice but to resort to logic, reason, analysis, and evidence. Placing pure faith in them for no other reason than because you'd like to does not equate to "truth". All that amounts to is a "whim" on your part.

However, when you speak of your "beliefs" in these stories you demand that logic, reason, analysis, and evidence have no place and that everything must be reduced to a matter of "pure faith only".

I guess it's that single point right there that I totally disagree with. Our difference in views on religion is a moot point. The real difference between our views is that I recognize the value of logic, reason, analysis, and evidence, and you do not.

You're under the misguided notion that everything is a equally matter of pure faith.

Thus from your point of view, you tend to think that anyone can supposedly "believe" in your religion because, from your point of view all that's required is that they simply place pure faith in your religion thus 'believe it'.

You don't seem to understand how logic, reason, analysis, and evidence actually holds value to other people who recognize the core of their essence.

You really need to consider Jeanniebean's foundational TRUTH, of "I AM".

You can only move forward from there. And moving forward from there requires logic, reason, analysis, and evidence, the very things that you're asking everyone else to toss aside as being irrelevant to what you see as faith. You place all your eggs in the basket of faith, a faith that could indeed be totally misplaced.

Suggesting that everything can base (or should base) everything on "pure faith" only serves to display your total misunderstanding of your true essence.

In fact, as I've clearly demonstrated before, your approach to this holds no value whatsoever.

~~~~~~~~~

Here's a very sincere question for you Cowboy:

If pure faith is all we can use to make a choice (as you suggest), then which of the following should we place our faith in?

1. The Flying Spaghetti Monster
2. Christianity

If you suggest that we should place our faith in one of these over the other, then please explain your reasoning why one is more favorable in terms of pure faith than the other?

Oh but wait!

If you give us reasons you've instantly abandoned your original stance that everything is based solely on faith and you have now moved into the realm of logic, reason, analysis, and evidence!

~~~~~~~~~~~

So the bottom line Cowboy, is that your faith based approach to religion (or life in general) has no merit.

If you are living on faith alone, then you have absolutely no reason to choose to believe in Christianity over the Flying Spaghetti monster.

So your faith-based approach to life has not rhyme or reason.

It can't be justified or 'argued for' without giving reasons.

But as soon as you start giving reasons you're right back in the world of logic, reason, analysis, and evidence.

So you're faith-based approach to life is simply untenable.

It has no merit beyond your own personal choice to live that way.

In fact, that's precisely all that faith can be.

Here's a very sincere question for you Cowboy:

If pure faith is all we can use to make a choice (as you suggest), then which of the following should we place our faith in?

1. The Flying Spaghetti Monster
2. Christianity

If you suggest that we should place our faith in one of these over the other, then please explain your reasoning why one is more favorable in terms of pure faith than the other?

Oh but wait! slaphead

If you give us reasons you've instantly abandoned your original stance that everything is based solely on faith and you have now moved into the realm of logic, reason, analysis, and evidence!

Okay, Cowboy. We have heard what YOU believe on faith. Are you willing to discuss an alternative? I mean, are you actually willing to consider an alternative?

If so, let us consider the alternative that the new testament was a complete fabrication and no man named Jesus ever actually existed. Are you willing to discuss and actually consider that alternative without shutting your mind? Or will you resort to preaching your beliefs instead?

My question is, are you willing to listen and consider alternatives? If you are not, then you are not "discussing" you are preaching.

Only you can know the answer to that question.

Because preaching is not a discussion. It is a sermon and it utilizes the reading, posting, and repeating of scripture. When you learn the difference your "discussions" will change. That is when you will begin to actually listen to something besides your own thoughts and beliefs.

Well first off what you said doesn't make sense. You're saying if I don't buckle to your beliefs and continue discussing with supporting the faith I am "preaching". So why is that when you don't buckle to my beliefs and continue discussing supporting your faith, you aren't preaching? Why is "preaching" only done coming from the Christian faith when in reality we are doing nothing other then what you are doing?

No one is preaching here lol, we're merely having a DISCUSSION. Yeah so our beliefs are separate from one another. It's not a debate. We're not trying to "mold" one another and or convince the other to our own beliefs. We're merely having a DISCUSSION. Learning of other beliefs.

If Cowboy wants to claim that faith is the most important thing in the world, then he should respect the faiths of other people!

If they say that they have faith in the Law of Attraction, or the Moon Goddess, or secular reasoning, or whatever, it doesn't matter. If his thesis is that faith is the bottom line, then he should respect everyone's faith equally.

He seems to be contradicting his own thesis when he tries to argue that his faith should trump everyone else's faith as some sort of "absolute truth".

Well first off what you said doesn't make sense. You're saying if I don't buckle to your beliefs and continue discussing with supporting the faith I am "preaching". So why is that when you don't buckle to my beliefs and continue discussing supporting your faith, you aren't preaching? Why is "preaching" only done coming from the Christian faith when in reality we are doing nothing other then what you are doing?

No one is preaching here lol, we're merely having a DISCUSSION. Yeah so our beliefs are separate from one another. It's not a debate. We're not trying to "mold" one another and or convince the other to our own beliefs. We're merely having a DISCUSSION. Learning of other beliefs.

That is what the words mean to me.

Also, all kidding aside, I'm sorry about invading the Science and Philosophy area, and that you feel hurt by what I wrote. That's not what I tried to do. No worries, I will back away from that area. I thought that atheists can come here, and believers can go there.

Although I do not agree with you, if you are posting, and someone (like myself) is causing you to be upset, that's not Christian. I will not respond to your posts on there.

I hope you accept my apology.

Shiki

Well first off what you said doesn't make sense. You're saying if I don't buckle to your beliefs and continue discussing with supporting the faith I am "preaching".

So why is that when you don't buckle to my beliefs and continue discussing supporting your faith, you aren't preaching? Why is "preaching" only done coming from the Christian faith when in reality we are doing nothing other then what you are doing?

No one is preaching here lol, we're merely having a DISCUSSION. Yeah so our beliefs are separate from one another. It's not a debate. We're not trying to "mold" one another and or convince the other to our own beliefs. We're merely having a DISCUSSION. Learning of other beliefs.

There's no need to "buckle" to anyone's "beliefs" or "speculations", by considering their scenario.

I consider your scenario all the time. I speak to the issues of you biblical picture of God at all time.

Let's assume that the Old Testament truly was written by a God. I have considered that on countless occasions and I have discussed it with you. In every single such discussion I have shown where that assumption leads to irresolvable paradoxes and contradictions concerning the very nature of what the God is supposed to be like.

Same thing is true of the New Testament. When I consider your views that Jesus was the only begotten son of the God depicted in the Old Testament, again it only leads to irresolvable paradoxes and contradictions concerning the very nature of what the God is supposed to be like.

That's necessarily where it always leads.

There is no logical, reasonable, scenario to support the idea that the Old Testament was the "Word" of any God, nor that Jesus was the son of that very same God.

Those are the only possibly conclusions I see whenever I consider your "beliefs".

So I have certainly considered your "beliefs" in extreme depth.

Yet, I never felt that I had to "buckle" to them.

I don't see where they have any merit is all. I'm not convinced.

Its seems like you won't be happy until people are convinced of your "beliefs".

Same thing is true of the New Testament. When I consider your views that Jesus was the only begotten son of the God depicted in the Old Testament, again it only leads to irresolvable paradoxes and contradictions concerning the very nature of what the God is supposed to be like.

Its seems like you won't be happy until people are convinced of your "standards".

Cowboy.

And who are you to make the standards of what God is suppose to be up to? And who are you to say your standards are greater then "God's" and or any other person's beliefs.

No, it matters to me none if one believes as I do or not. Again, we're merely having a discussion here. Not trying to convert the other or change the other's beliefs and or opinions.

CeriseRose wrote:

+ + +

Jesus Christ is Lord!!!

Abra said:

Same thing is true of the New Testament. When I consider your views that Jesus was the only begotten son of the God depicted in the Old Testament, again it only leads to irresolvable paradoxes and contradictions concerning the very nature of what the God is supposed to be like.


Cowboy asked:
And who are you to make the standards of what God is suppose to be up to? And who are you to say your standards are greater then "God's" and or any other person's beliefs.

*****************************

Cowboy, I believe Abra is referring to the standards and nature of how God portrayed in THE BIBLE and by Christians themselves.

******************************

Cowboy this is a truly ignorant and immature response.

I don't need to make any 'standards' of what God is supposed to be like. The authors of the Bible have done that on their own. I merely show where their very own stories shoot themselves in their view own feet.

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for me to make any external subjective evaluations. The stories are self-contradicting.



Yeah right.

You've already confessed that you are a 'servant of God' on a mission to preach his word.

So you're basically lying when you deny that. Why is it that Christian proselytizers and evangelists feel that they need to lie in order to evangelize. Why don't they just confess up front what their agenda is, (as you have already done in previous posts?)

You're out to convince people of what you believe to be a "TRUTH", (i.e. that Jesus was The Christ and must be obeyed as LORD)



The the crusaders are getting restless sitting on the sidelines, they are ready to march off as Christian soldiers off to WAR!

Kill the heathens! Jesus is LORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cowboy this is a truly ignorant and immature response.

I don't need to make any 'standards' of what God is supposed to be like. The authors of the Bible have done that on their own. I merely show where their very own stories shoot themselves in their view own feet.

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for me to make any external subjective evaluations. The stories are self-contradicting.

Abra:
Same thing is true of the New Testament. When I consider your views that Jesus was the only begotten son of the God depicted in the Old Testament, again it only leads to irresolvable paradoxes and contradictions concerning the very nature of what the God is supposed to be like.

Exactly. It's a self-contradicting story, I have no need to put anything on it from outside. In fact, if I was open to being able to do that, then I couldn't say that the stories are self-contradicting!

Religion.--- religions are many, Who have many Gods. And churches are structures built by man for social , political and monetary control over society. And priests and preachers and reverends alike are the tools to sustain and influence those means to that end.

People say - I do not believe in God anymore or his scripture. I have lost faith in heaven. Just because their priest or preacher or their church has lied, stolen, deceived and mislead it's followers by committing the very sins they so strongly condemn in the Lords name and threaten with the punishment of Hell everlasting.


Wake up ye of no faith, weak faith, brittle souls and weak easily led minds. Church is not God nor are those who convey his word. they are structures and people. - God is not there. that is not God you are looking at or listening to. You have to find God your self and find that connection in your own heart and mind - that is the true faith and religion of strength and salvation. No one else can make that eternal bond for you - but you yourself. all else is just trappings to share and rejoice in what you have found.
If you let man and his structures dictate your sense of truth - Then you are nothing more than an easily led soul, a follower shallow and easy to manipulate a sheep truly lost.
My wife and her family do not believe in god and never have and they have always put it down as a joke - But when my wife almost died after a critical surgery in 2009 - in intensive care on that bed and barely alive while they were trying to bring her back. all she kept saying over and over to no one but the air God please do not let me die - I do not want to die, God please help me. --- And her father who died twice during heart surgery and went into cardiac arrest in recovery was crying and pleading God I do not want to die ,Please do not let me die. It's funny human beings to deny -put down -renounce God and salvation - Until they reach that final moment and taking their last breaths - that like scared lost little children full of fear and the cold embrace of death - that cry and beg and plead with God to spare us return us to the light of life and escape the final darkness. No one cries out save me Satan or doctor or nurse or brother or sister or mom or dad or please my best friend don't let me die or please my wife save me from Death. It is God who our dying soul calls and reaches out to in moments of desperation and despair not science or worldly vices. It's God - all you self righteous, self indulged ego, self opinionated masses.
And the theory of evolution might have been so - But the elements and the space in which those little pieces of life could develop and exist were created - because nothing has nothing in it or the properties in which to birth life and spawn creation - God did this. God was the Big bang. And I will guarantee that you all, even the most evil and wicked. Will call his name in their final moments as the light fades to black and death closes your eyes and shuts your mouth forever. vanity an arrogance blinds and veils us until death collects the debt we all have to pay. So good luck with your souls arrival at it's next destination. There are no returns , refunds , trades or exchanges with the purchase of life it has no dates or times of expiration. that term of contract is not disclosed to the holder only the lender..... And your next purchase is waiting to be opened - gets closer every passing day and those are numbered.

I understood this post to be non-insult...as in personal insults.

I assumed all were mature enough to watch that today.

But the fact is...most of you see it as a war.

Why?... I don't know.

I will take some blame for insulting certain "hecklers",
not to add the fact that most of your behaviors' merit a crushing remark.

But I have never ever seen any of Cowboy's posts
delivered as an insult.

Cowboy is quite patient and forgiving.

Better than me!

God bless you Cowboy.
May He continue to bless you with the virtues of patience, longsuffering, self-control, etc.

He's still working on me...

but I know He's working with me as well.

+ + +
Jesus Christ is Lord!!!

I would ask that Abra and Cowboy take their religious discussion to another thread. I have posted a new topic about an alternative for where the New Testament came from and who wrote it and why.