There will be wailing and the gnashing of teeth in a place where the hellfire flames cannot be quenched and the worm lives forever?

Sure sounds like a threat to me.

The bottom line is that these Christian fables simply don't support the fairytale that you have constructed. The fairytale that you make up is something other than these Christian fables.

What sense would it even make to speak of a "savior" if there is nothing negative to be "saved" from? This religion is totally lost if it doesn't offer a negative threat to be "saved" from.

In fact, if you claim that there is no negative threat in this religion, then all you are doing is claiming that there is nothing to be "saved" from and thus no need to believe in any "savior".

So you're claims that there is no threat associated with this religion makes no sense.

No threat = no need for any "savior".

All of a sudden it's no longer important to believe in the religion.



No. The word "Christianity" arises specifically from the fact the New Testament rumors are trying to make a case that Jesus was "The Christ".

It's their position that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of the God of Abraham. And that in order to avoid the wrath of the God of Abraham, you must accept this sacrifice on your behalf. Otherwise the threat of doom remains upon you!

It's basically a cult that is threatening that if you don't buy into it and support it you will be damned by God himself and cast into a hellfire where there will be wailing and the gnashing of teeth.

What I find interesting is that in the USA laws were actually written not too long ago that make it illegal for cults to threaten nasty things to those who decide to leave, or refuse to join. Yet look at Christianity. It is precisely such a cult. Fail to join it, or suggest that you'll leave it, and you'll be condemned by the cult, and by God himself according to the cult's proclamations.

This is the ultimate fear tactic that many cults use.

Christianity is really nothing more than a religious cult that become mainstream.

What sense would it even make to speak of a "savior" if there is nothing negative to be "saved" from? This religion is totally lost if it doesn't offer a negative threat to be "saved" from.

No. The word "Christianity" arises specifically from the fact the New Testament rumors are trying to make a case that Jesus was "The Christ".

It's their position that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of the God of Abraham. And that in order to avoid the wrath of the God of Abraham, you must accept this sacrifice on your behalf. Otherwise the threat of doom remains upon you!

It's basically a cult that is threatening that if you don't buy into it and support it you will be damned by God himself and cast into a hellfire where there will be wailing and the gnashing of teeth.

Actually I think you have the tripartite God confused with Jesus being his own father. Supposedly there is God the Father, God the son, and God the Holy Spirit. So where is God the wife? Makes God sound like an Anemone which can bud offspring from itself and consumes everything it touches! This is such a load since it deifies a man and puts him on the same plane as god himself. That would be impossible since God the Son existed after God the Father. There can't be more than one God according to Christians and yet they have three. Hypocrisy within the faith!

Jesus is the Christ. And right there is why people such as you have given believers the title "Christian". And again there is no threat. There is merely knowledge of what is to come to prepare us.

Not it's not. Again after again, NO ONE will EVER go to hell. Hell is destroyed in the end of times and cast into the lake of fire. There are no threats. When we were in the Garden we had eternal life. Adam and Eve disobeyed God eating of the tree of life which got us removed from the garden. And since we don't live in the garden anymore, we no longer have eternal life as of where we are now. That is where Jesus comes in. Jesus offers eternal life through his blood. That is what life is all about. It is a second chance to show our obedience to our father. For would it make much sense if God allowed disobedient people back into the paradise when that was the original reason we are no longer in the paradise? No would make absolutely no sense. So you can take your lies else where please.

No, Adam and Eve did not eat from the tree of life, they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Supposedly they had no knowledge of good and evil prior to having eaten from that tree.

There is actually a huge contradiction associate with that fable to begin with. If Adam and Evil did not know knowledge of good and evil prior to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then they could have only done so in a state of pure innocence not realizing that this very act was itself an evil act.

You see, the mortal authors who made up that fairytale weren't very bright and didn't realize the logical flaw in their story. Of course the original authors were probably just telling bedtime stories for fun and it only became a religion because the masses started to actually believe in these fables.

And beside, the vast majority of official Christian clergy recognize the existence of hell in the Bible. You are in an extreme minority of those who reject the hell concept. That has only recently become a "New-Age Christianity" thing. People trying hard to try to clean the religion up a little bit in an effort to make the God appear a little more sane then he would otherwise be.

But you need to deny the words of your very Christ, for even he made statements about people being cast into hell where there will be wailing and the gnashing of teeth, and the eternal flames will be unquenchable and the worm shall never die.

So you need to be in denial of the very words of your Christ, if you want to deny the reality of hell in your religion.

You'll need to tell him to take his lies elsewhere, not me.

But you need to deny the words of your very Christ, for even he made statements about people being cast into hell where there will be wailing and the gnashing of teeth, and the eternal flames will be unquenchable and the worm shall never die.

No. People who believe the rumors that Jesus was "The Christ" consider themselves to be "Christians", using that title to mean that they are supposedly "followers of the Christ".

Although in truth, I personally don't even care about the labels. It's the fables that are clearly false.

You basically need to believe in two fables.

First, the fable that all of humanity "fell from grace" from our creator.

That's a totally unwarranted fable right there, IMHO.

And then secondly, the fable that the only way to be 'saved' from the this supposed fall from grace is to support "Christianity".

You claim that it's not about a specific dogma. But you're claims don't match up with your demands. Because ultiamtely you demand that people accept the entire biblical cannon as the "Word of God".

In other words, you force it to be entirely about dogma even whilst you hide behind the false claims that its supposedly not about dogma.

As always, a blatant contradiction in your very own claims.

If it's not about dogma then please tell me how a person can achieve this so called "salvation" without condoning and supporting the written dogma of the Christian cannon of fables?

It's not possible, because as soon as I renounce that dogma you start taking conniption fits.

It's ALL about supporting your dogma.

Period!

That's all it's about.

In fact, all of you claims, such as the idea that humanity fell from grace from God and that Jesus offers salvation for that event, are all entirely based on that dogma, because without that dogma no such claims even exist!

They come directly out of that dogma.

They simply don't exist anywhere else.

It's entirely a belief in very specific fables.

Period.

You claim that it's not about a specific dogma. But you're claims don't match up with your demands. Because ultiamtely you demand that people accept the entire biblical cannon as the "Word of God".

Would you please enlighten us with the verse(s) that Jesus himself said that people will be cast into "HELL" and that "HELL" has eternal flames.

It's not about any "dogma". It's about worshiping, loving, uplifting, and worshiping our father who art in heaven.

i call that check..and mate

Take away the dogma, and you have nothing to support your claims.

It's entirely about worshiping dogma.

The alleged "dogma" states several times that the "dogma" is not and will not be required. I've proven this numerous times but it seems some people would prefer to believe lies...

Oh please.

Try to pay more attention.

We've had this discussion before. I posted the verses verbatim, I even posted the Official Catholic stance on this straight from the Vatican web site where they made a very good case for it using a whole series of various scriptures.

I'm tired of being asked to look this stuff up for you over and over and over again. If you weren't in such denial you'd just get it right the first time.

Here's some quick results from having just done a quick search on the new testament using the word hell. These are just verses that are attributed directly to Jesus:


Matt.5

1. [22] But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
2. [29] And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
3. [30] And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Matt.10

1. [28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matt.18

1. [9] And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Matt.23

1. [15] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
2. [33] Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mark.9

1. [43] And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
2. [45] And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
3. [47] And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Matt.8

1. [12] But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt.13

1. [42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
2. [50] And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matt.22

1. [13] Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt.24

1. [51] And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt.25

1. [30] And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke.13

1. [28] There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.


It's riddled with referenced of threats of people being cast into the damnation of hell and hellfire where there will be unquenchable flames and wailing and the gnashing of teeth.

Just because you're in denial of these things doesn't make them go away from the fables. These are supposedly the words of "The Christ" himself. Surely you're not going to call your Christ a liar?

Jesus refers to it himself as the "Damnation of Hell", so clearly this is a place where people are being 'damned'.

It's clearly a threat of a very nasty situation that most sane people would prefer to avoid.

But obviously you're in complete denial of what these fables have Jesus himself proclaiming to be truth.

Baloney.

What do you continually draw on to support your claims?

You continually post numbered verses directly from specific dogma every time you want to make a claim.

Take away the dogma, and you have nothing to support your claims.

It's entirely about worshiping dogma.

Period.

Without your dogma you have NOTHING!

If we're talking about the moon scientifically, would you not use a book to show evidence of what you're saying? If we're talking about anything to do with history, would you not use a book to show evidence of what you're saying? It's not about the book we call the bible. It's about the information inside of it. It's not about any dogma, it's about the knowledge of our father. We do not bow to the bible, we do not pray to the bible, we do not worship the bible. The bible is merely a book. What is important is the knowledge it contains. It contains the knowledge of our heavenly father and the way to achieve the award of eternal life.

If we're talking about the moon scientifically, would you not use a book to show evidence of what you're saying? If we're talking about anything to do with history, would you not use a book to show evidence of what you're saying? It's not about the book we call the bible. It's about the information inside of it. It's not about any dogma, it's about the knowledge of our father. We do not bow to the bible, we do not pray to the bible, we do not worship the bible. The bible is merely a book. What is important is the knowledge it contains. It contains the knowledge of our heavenly father and the way to achieve the award of eternal life.

But that's your assumption right there. You claim that this collection of fables contains the knowledge of our heavenly father.

That's precisely that very idea that I reject.

I show clear evidence of why these stories cannot be the word of any all-wise all-righteous God, and therefore they necessarily must be nothing more than the fables of the mortal human culture that wrote them. In fact, I've shown why this necessarily has to be the case because these people have made false claims in their stories.

From my point of view I believe the following three things:

1. The Old Testament or Torah has no more credibility than Greek mythology. It's simply not wise enough to be the word of any supposedly all-wise supreme being, and it contains huge errors in logic.

2. Jesus was not the son of the God of Abraham, and obviously he didn't even support the moral and behavioral directives that had been laid out in the Torah. We even see this in the descriptions of Jesus in the New Testament. Plus these gospels have Jesus referring to the Torah as "Your Laws", not as "God's Laws" when speaking with the pharisees. So it's crystal clear to me that Jesus did not even recognize the Torah as the word of any God.

3. The New Testament is nothing more than exaggerated rumors, or possibly even an outright devious religious propaganda scam, that tries to use the rumors of Jesus to create a religion by trying to make out that Jesus was the so-called "Christ". A title that even the Jews themselves did not accept. They hold Jesus up as the ultimate sacrificial lamb of God who must be accepted lest a person be cast into the pits of the hell fire.

Yet when speaking with me you keep referring to the Torah and the New Testament as the "knowledge" of our heavenly father.

Obviously you are incapable of comprehending my position.

I do not accept that the Torah or the New Testament have anything to do with God. If Jesus has anything to do with God, my best guess is that his link to God is through Mahayana Buddhism since that best fits with what he supposedly taught (minus all the rumors and devious propaganda that was shoved in his mouth after he died)

If you want to speak about the Bible from a scientific and historical point of view then the very first thing you need to come to grips with is that it does not contain a single solitary word written by the man named Jesus himself. At best it contains extremely unreliable hearsay rumors by men who clearly had an agenda to use the rumors of Jesus for their own purposes. Which, IMHO, was to regain power for the church. After all, what better way to create a Church than to write up stories that try to make out like your Church as the "only way to God" and anyone who doesn't accept and worship your religion shall be proclaimed to be "ungodly" and condemned by God himself.

In truth, it's the most disgusting religion ever devised by men for this very reason. Although, I will grant you that this was typical of those people, since the Torah itself was already based on a jealous God who hates heathens. This is why it was so easy to extend that principle of a hateful jealous God through Jesus as "The Christ". They could have never done that without the help of the jealous God of Abraham myth as a foundation.

The Abrahamic religions are based on extreme religious bigotry, and Christianity (the New Testament), just took that basic principle and ran with it using Jesus as the "sacrificial lamb" of that previous angry jealous God.

I don't buy any of it. The Hebrews haven't pulled the wool over my eyes. There's far too much cultural hatred, male-chauvinism, and religious bigotry in their religion. It's just not the slightest bit "divine" as far as I can see.

Look at you, all you ever do with this religion is DEFEND against it's obviously flaws. And the only way you can make a case for that defense is to accuse the whole of the human race with being at odds with God.

As far as I can see, you're only going to be able to sell the religion to people who feel like they are at odds with God. You're not going to have any luck convincing people like me who know that they are not at odds with any hateful jealous Gods.

That's just ridiculous right there.

I'd need to believe that I'm at odds with God before your religion could even remotely begin to make any sense. Yet, I know for a fact that I'm not. So the religion can't possibly be true.

It's just not even within the realm of possibility.

2. Jesus was not the son of the God of Abraham, and obviously he didn't even support the moral and behavioral directives that had been laid out in the Torah. We even see this in the descriptions of Jesus in the New Testament. Plus these gospels have Jesus referring to the Torah as "Your Laws", not as "God's Laws" when speaking with the pharisees. So it's crystal clear to me that Jesus did not even recognize the Torah as the word of any God.

It's not about any "dogma". It's about worshiping, loving, uplifting, and worshiping our father who art in heaven.

The definition of dogma!

Jesus fulfilled the torah, finished it, completed it, finalized it, finished the prophesies. Jesus brought forth a new testament. And they were referred to as "your laws" because who else's laws were they going to be? The laws of the USA are the laws of the people, they are THEIR laws. God's laws for us are OUR laws. So how is that not recognizing the Torah as the word of God?

The Hebrews sure don't see things that way! And you are right because? You have the word of God on your side maybe? I am very curious, what is God's phone number? I need to confirm who is right. Jews do not see the Torah as having been completed. The temple is not up again!

Now about Jesus's statements about who's laws were in the Torah. The Ten Commandments were issued BY God. Now... Jesus comes along and says "Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself," which sounds innocent enough except for one thing, the evil side of humans. Say for instance I was some really deranged nutcase bible thumping Jesus freak who took the passage this way, "I expect others to do bad to me so I should do bad unto them because they are sinners, they don't worship Jesus. They are not pure." (GREAT CHARACTER AND PLOT FOR A HORROR MOVIE!!!! I am feeling the creative flow tonight!) To clarify, if Jesus says do unto others as you would have done unto yourself then if I feel people are going to do bad to me I should to unto them as well ANYWAYS. Jesus said do unto others as I would have done unto me.

Crazy people just do not think by sane rational. They can twist anything said to justify their actions. But religion can do that to sane people as well. Being dependent on a book of lies to justify your beliefs is the weakness. All Jesus wanted to do was teach us a simpler way to live and to live a good life. Not to suck up to God. There is still evil in this world. The worst part is it is part of all of us. Coming to terms with evil's presence is not bad. Being evil is bad. You can't fight evil because you wind up fighting yourself! The only way to beat evil is to out think it! And depending on outside forces, especially God, does you nothing in a world where we are supposed to have free will. God cannot intervene or affect our free will detrimentally.

Its easy to fling verses but it is FAR harder to philosophize! I am not going to be led around by a book to think! Why is your faith predicated so staunchly on a bible and not on a touch of all faiths? They are all lies but all point to the truth. And the truth is the devil is US! We just need a fellow unseen organism to pin the blame on instead of taking responsibility for ourselves!

All Jesus wanted to do was teach us a simpler way to live and to live a good life. Not to suck up to God

Jesus comes along and says "Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself," which sounds innocent enough except for one thing, the evil side of humans. Say for instance I was some really deranged nutcase bible thumping Jesus freak who took the passage this way, "I expect others to do bad to me so I should do bad unto them because they are sinners, they don't worship Jesus. They are not pure."