I don't understand why you would say this after Bushido's post. Is it because facts got involved?

No,

Because the posts pretty much closed the discussion.

More along the lines of, "You're wrong, here's why."

Having read the whole thread now, I think you are suggesting something along those lines. You may have answered your own question - since there is no way of measuring the rate of time outside of time, then it doesn't make sense to even ask whether time is truly moving at the same rate (except by comparison to other regions or periods within our universe). This isn't an argument of "we can't know, so don't ask", the argument is "by definition, the question is ill-formed".


Edit: And yet, it has created a really interesting discussion. Thank you for asking it!

Oh. Thank you for explaining.

Well, it is along the lines of what defines time. How does time work. Yes time is a man made construct, but it is also the measurement of the rate at which things change. So why is it the faster you move the slower things change? It isn't just perception either.

Just thought of something. I used an example of someone that stops time and walks ten feet. In effect, they are moving at infinite velocity at that time. The closer you get to the speed of light the slower time moves. So, these two concepts are related. You move fast enough and time stops for you. Get to absolute zero and time stops for you. In both these instances, time continues to move for the rest of the universe. But if it is possible to stop time, stop all movement throughout the universe except for you, you would have a similar effect but reversed. Time moves for you as you can move but frozen for everything else.

To do something like that you would have to acually step from this universe (with its set of 'laws') to a universe that had a different (set) but parelled this universe in most aspects.

Then step back into this universe when you had 'reached' your distination.

there is nothing that really exists but observed time

the rest is just a bunch of theories and NOT a definition of what time is, but an attempt to discover/understand whether time can be manipulated

even if you can theoretically manipulate your position in time by traveling faster than the speed of light or whatever - that does not change what time is

it is still a unit of measure

I don't necessarily see disagreement here - but perhaps I tend to expect a strict definition of terms because that is how I was trained

But what if your perception of standard time that consisted of years, months, weeks, days, hours, etc... which is totally represented by our orbit of the sun, changed?

Then time as you know it (as far as your perception goes) would change.

Which somehow means the speed of light is (roughly 300,000 kilometers per second). That being relative to our perception of seconds.

So... unless everything in our 'known' universe stopped moving (expanding); time... will forever be a polynominal reduction.

The answer is becuase the speed of light is constant across frames of reference.

Also I would not state the question the way you did, as it would be slightly wrong. To be exact . . . I would state the question as, why does time slow down for a person traveling at higher velocities COMPARED to a person traveling at slower velocities?

ie the faster you move through space, the slower you move through time.


And the answer is becuase light is the universal speed constant in which light always travels at C for all frames of reference even when you are traveling at 99.999999% the speed of light, light still travels away from you at C. The only way light can do this, is if space and time bend for it.

YES, mind boggling!

There are two kinds of time,
steady time and percieved time.

Steady time is something that can be measured like the decay of a radioactive substance which tends to be uniform and consistent. No matter how you watch it under any circumstances its decay can be measured with precision to be constant like the beats of a metronome.

Perceived time is fluid. It can seem faster or slower person for person. Yes time does fly when your having fun. It drags when you are bored out of your skull.

Now Steady time is not exactly perfect either. There are phenomenon we BARELY comprehend where there may be bubbles in space where "time" progresses either faster or slower. Now when you enter dimensional or "planar" 'planes', you know, the "Extra Dimensions" that theoretically exist, the space in between (so to speak) might not have any time at all or time as we understand it.

Likewise true oblivion has no time either. True oblivion is about as empty and nothing as nothing can get. Getting stuck there would be just like a death sentence!

Now Einsteinian physics says the closer to the speed of light the slower time will seem to you while to us time would speed up at least from your perspective. Unfortunately we don't have the means to test that out. I feel time is constant across all levels of THIS universe no matter how close to light speed you get. Dopplar Time Shifting I feel is a myth. If it was true then time would be chaotically fluid and non linear. Atomic explosions could in theory cause rips in time especially if say a star exploded if Einstein was right.

We do, and have. Both General and Special Relativity have been tested countless times and confirmed each and every time. Google, testing General relativity, or testing Special Relativity . . . here I did it for you and the first link has TONS of stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_general_relativity
Another link
http://archive.ncsa.illinois.edu/Cyberia/NumRel/EinsteinTest.html
http://www.phys.ncku.edu.tw/mirrors/physicsfaq/Relativity/SR/experiments.html



There are satellites right now traveling at a small fraction of the speed of light that are sensitive enough to detect the difference.

We have tested it in the exact way some previous posted mentioned we should, we have measured the difference in time between the top of a mounting and the bottom of the mountain and while the difference was on the order of 10^-12 power it was still detachable.

Einsteins theories of relativity have been tested more then almost any other theories in physics, and has with amazing accuracy succeeded.

Why you would believe that atomic explosions could cause rips in time eludes my understanding, perhaps you could explain that a bit.

If you are talking about the tests involving radio active decay ie. Atomic clocks mounted on air craft those test are fallacious! Radioactive decay's properties, it's decay changes speed as well. In a way the farther away from the gravity well the faster the substance decays. Gravity itself is part of the reason the sun doesn't just go BOOM! That there is one of the flaws of Einsteinian physics. If things all worked exactly to his model the sun would not exist. The only way i can see time dilation being proven is if you could somehow achieve .5C or better. Supposedly by Einsteinian physics nothing goes the speed of light, except PHOTONS but now how about this, Tachyons! That wacky little particle that goes backwards in time. Still Theoretical BUT there have been experiments that prove something is happening when they specifically try to make them.

There is WAY more to the picture than Einstein!

Personally I think particle physics got the photon wrong.

I do not believe it 'moves'. I beleive it to be a constant that is 'not there' when the energy momentum of a measured system is equal and at 'rest'. When energy is applied to the system the 'photon' simply passes that energy to the nearest 'photon' in the constant field in direct proportion to the angle of the energy change.

Such a system would show 'wave' when energy is applied or moving 'through' the measurement area and 'particle' when the photon is measured individually.

and any one not looking at it as a constant 'field' would simply see the 'appearent' movement of the 'photon'.

Time is not a constant and eddies and pools as a river flows.

Cool, like the image.

Thought of something.

For arguments sake:

Let's say that it is possible with Einstein's laws intact to travel faster than the speed of light.

The reason time slows is because light is always moving at a constant velocity in relation to your movement.

So, in theory, if you reach the speed of light, time would be frozen for you in relation to all the mass that is moving at "normal" velocities. You wouldn't age a bit. But time for the rest of the universe would be hurtling past you.

What would happen if you go faster than the speed of light? If light travels at a constant velocity in relation to you, wouldn't you be traveling backwards in time? The other possibility would be you would be "splitting" light similar to a supersonic jet splitting the air. That was thought to be impossible not all that long ago as well...

For this argument I am ignoring the formula that states it is a mathematical impossibility. Going with logic. Say for instance that someone figured out how to build a ship that traveled outside of normal time and space (warp speed so to speak) but still adheres to the ratio of the speed of light and your time flow.

My personal opinion regarding applied science is that if someone can imagine something (like warp speed) eventually someone can figure out a way to build it. Now whether or not the use of the design is practical is another story. Like say we have figured out a way to fold space so rather than traveling through space you sidestep to another loop and are instantly there with no time variations. You are the same age and no one you knew aged, you are just light-years away from where you just were. If we have that technology, what point would there be to build a warp drive?

Think of all the fantastical ideas in fictional stories that came to be. 2000 Leagues under the sea for example...

Actually the current explanation I am aware of is that Photons literally fill the universe like water in an ocean. Light we see is a wave of excitation that means Photons are being nudged by other photons much like water behaves when a shock makes ripples. The Photons do not travel at the speed of light, the shock wave does. It is the only way the presence of a Photon can be explained by Einsteinian physics. This could mean that "Dark Energy" could actually be a Photon at rest! But this creates more conundrums than it explains.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Length_contraction

What I find so amazingly interesting about relativity is how it explains so many observations; it makes sense of so much of particle physics. The story of the Muon is just one example.

How does the 'movement' of Cherenkov radiation through water compared to the phase volicity of light in the same medium compare with relativity?

Does it fit?

Or is it actually moving faster than light in that same medium. (reactor water). (i.e. does it change the 'relativity' for its 'special circumstance')?