Read Exodus 20:1-17...



Now I think I see your confusion. There is an implicit punishment for breaking these laws, but the punishment is not in this lifetime. These are not the laws of a government, they are God's laws and the punishment is applied in the afterlife. Jesus' ministry removed the burden of the civil and ceremonial laws from Christians, so that Christianity could spread from one country and culture to another.

The civil and ceremonial laws kept most Jews near Jerusalem, because the civil laws were enforced there and the ceremonial laws required sacrifices in the temple in Jerusalem. Christians aren't under those laws, so we can live freely wherever we want and under almost any culture and side by side with any religion. The destruction of the temple in Jerusalem also freed the Jews in a way and dispersed them throughout the world. There was no longer a temple for sacrifices and Jews were already being forced to live under other nations laws, so nothing held them to their ancestral lands of Israel.

Welcome...

I agree with this. Although, I find a meaningful distinction between being a religious expert and one's claiming to be one. One need not know anything about Christianity to understand what the Bible says. Understanding Christianity involves understanding what the Bible means to Christians. I've witnessed non-Christians that understand the tenets as well or better than some or most Christians do.



The one who gave the message cannot be found in order to testify. There are some long-held Christian beliefs that conflict with modern society's idea of fairness and freedom. American society not only has freedom of religion, but just as importantly - perhaps even moreso - freedom from religion.



God has shown himself to be rather absent when it comes to societal affairs. He does not usually show up to testify. His address cannot be found in order to serve the subpoena. The problems are ethical, that is, they deal with conflicting beliefs/rights. No one is arguing about whether or not the Bible endorses slavery, poor treatment of women, genocide, and other things that go against our codes of acceptable behavior. Those things can readily be found. Opponents of religious oppression argue whether or not the fact that those things can be found in the Bible serves to justify our putting them into practice.

The Bible clearly DOES NOT support "slavery, poor treatment of women, genocide". So I certainly would hope that you wouldn't argue that it does. Yet you do. And so do your fellow anti-Christians. Regardless of each of your personal beliefs, most of them made from whole cloth to support your preexisting beliefs, you can all agree to smear, lie about and insult Christianity. And when we cry foul you can say "We aren't talking about Christians, just Christianity. It's a religion that calls for genocide, supports raping women and supports slavery. I don't know why you guys love genocide, raping women and slavery, but I don't hold it against you." That's unfair and anyone who doesn't have their head completely in their rectum would know that.

Exactly, although some who have just relocated their heads do still have chit covering their eyes...

Abolitionists were mainly Christians.

Supporters of women's sufferage were mainly Christians.

Supporters of civil rights were mainly Christians.

Why do so many people find it necessary to demonize their political or religious opponents? If you don't want to be a Christian, FINE! Great! Throw a freaking party and buy a t-shirt. But don't lie about the contributions that Christianity has given to society and culture.

Interesting how the facts in evidence support my earlier claims, conflict with yours, but somehow I'm the one who is confused?

How is it Spider, that when one reads the Ten Commandments in nearly every translation version possible, one can clearly see different forms punishments being openly described/implied? There is also the necessarily implied punishment that accompanies all sensible talk of behavioral laws, past and present.

Which translation are you using, the King James? We've had this discussion before regarding the second commandment and it's allegedly unjust punishment of children/grandchildren for the crimes/sins of the father. I suspect that you will argue about which translation is accurate. More importantly perhaps, what "visiting the iniquities of the father" means in the King James. Here's what most of the experts say...


Exodus 20:5 (New King James Version)
5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,


Exodus 20:5 (Contemporary English Version)
5Don't bow down and worship idols. I am the LORD your God, and I demand all your love. If you reject me, I will punish your families for three or four generations.


Exodus 20:5 (GOD’S WORD Translation)
5Never worship them or serve them, because I, the Lord your God, am a God who does not tolerate rivals. I punish children for their parents’ sins to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me.


Exodus 20:5 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
5 You must not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, (A) punishing the children for the fathers' sin, to the third and fourth [generations] (B) of those who hate Me,


Exodus 20:5 (Young's Literal Translation)
5Thou dost not bow thyself to them, nor serve them: for I, Jehovah thy God, [am] a zealous God, charging iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third [generation], and on the fourth, of those hating Me,


Exodus 20:5 (New International Version - UK)
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,


Exodus 20:5 (New International Reader's Version)
5 Do not bow down to them or worship them. I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God. I punish the children for the sin of their parents. I punish the grandchildren and great-grandchildren of those who hate me.


Exodus 20:5 (Today’s New International Version, ©2005)
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,


The Ten Commandments clearly include punishment.

CS,

When I said punishment, I meant applied by MEN. That's what makes a law a civil or judicial law. I thought that it was obvious that civil laws would have to be enforced by the civilization. Maybe I wasn't clear, but I should be able to expect someone who wants to debate religion to see a difference between a supernatural punishment exacted by God and a punishment exacted by a society.

Besides, only one commandment includes a punishment. You are trying to split hairs here and it just seems very immature. There is a clear difference between the kinds of punishments applied by the civil laws and the punishment mentioned in the 2nd Commandment.

Leviticus 25:44-46 (King James Version)

44Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

45Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

46And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

Leviticus 25:44-46 (Today’s New International Version, ©2005)

44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

Leviticus 25:44-46 (GOD’S WORD Translation)

44“You may have male and female slaves, but buy them from the nations around you. 45You may also buy them from the foreigners living among you and from their families born in your country. They will be your property. 46You may acquire them for yourselves and for your descendants as permanent property. You may work them as slaves. However, do not treat the Israelites harshly. They are your relatives.





Exodus 21:2-6 (King James Version)

2If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.

3If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.

4If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.

5And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:

6Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Exodus 21:2-6 (Today’s New International Version, ©2005)

Hebrew Servants

2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

Exodus 21:2-6 (GOD’S WORD Translation)

2“Whenever you buy a Hebrew slave, he will be your slave for six years. In the seventh year he may leave as a free man, without paying for his freedom. 3If he comes to you by himself, he must leave by himself. If he comes as a married man, his wife may leave with him. 4If his master gives him a wife and she gives birth to sons or daughters, the wife and her children belong to the master, and the slave must leave by himself. 5But if he makes this statement: ‘I hereby declare my love for my master, my wife, and my children. I don’t want to leave as a free man,’ 6then his master must bring him to God. The master must bring him to the door or the doorframe and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his slave for life.





Exodus 21:7-11 (King James Version)

7And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.

8If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.

9And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.

10If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.

11And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.

Exodus 21:7-11 (Today’s New International Version, ©2005)

7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself,[a] he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.

Exodus 21:7-11 (GOD’S WORD Translation)

7“Whenever a man sells his daughter into slavery, she will not go free the way male slaves do. 8If she doesn’t please the master who has chosen her as a wife,[a] he must let her be bought back by one of her close relatives. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, since he has treated her unfairly. 9But if he has chosen her for his son, he must treat her like a daughter. 10If that son marries another woman, he must not deprive the first wife of food, clothes, or sex. 11If he doesn’t give her these three things, she can go free, without paying any money for her freedom.





Exodus 21:20-21 (King James Version)

20And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

21Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

Exodus 21:20-21 (Today’s New International Version, ©2005)

20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

Exodus 21:20-21 (GOD’S WORD Translation)

20“Whenever an owner hits his male or female slave with a stick so that the slave dies from the beating, the owner must be punished. 21But if the slave gets up in a day or two, the owner must not be punished. The slave is his property.





Ephesians 6:5 (King James Version)

5Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;

Ephesians 6:5 (Today’s New International Version, ©2005)

5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.

Ephesians 6:5 (GOD’S WORD Translation)

Paul’s Advice to Slaves and Masters
5Slaves, obey your earthly masters with proper respect. Be as sincere as you are when you obey Christ.





1 Timothy 6:1-2 (King James Version)

1 Timothy 6
1Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.

2And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.

1 Timothy 6:1-2 (Today’s New International Version, ©2005)

1 Timothy 6
1 All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2 Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare[a] of their slaves.

1 Timothy 6:1-2 (GOD’S WORD Translation)

1 Timothy 6
1All slaves who believe must give complete respect to their own masters. In this way no one will speak evil of God’s name and what we teach. 2Slaves whose masters also believe should respect their masters even though their masters are also believers. As a result, believers who are slaves should serve their masters even better because those who receive the benefit of their work are believers whom they love.

Guidelines for Living a Godly Life
Teach and encourage people to do these things.





Luke 12:47-48 (King James Version)

47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Luke 12:47-48 (Today’s New International Version, ©2005)

47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

Luke 12:47-48 (GOD’S WORD Translation)

47“The servant who knew what his master wanted but didn’t get ready to do it will receive a hard beating. 48But the servant who didn’t know what his master wanted and did things for which he deserved punishment will receive a light beating. A lot will be expected from everyone who has been given a lot. More will be demanded from everyone who has been entrusted with a lot.

I need not split hairs to justify my claims. The splitting of hairs is a failed attempt to justify your own. You claimed that the laws that Jesus denounced involved punishment, and that the Ten Commandments did not.

You're wrong in your understanding of the Bible.

Irony at work again.

Get off the tissy-fit wagon. I'm not attacking you.

While some Christians may have supported the causes, the majority of the opposition held Christian/biblical beliefs as ground to oppose. Some come to know better, thankfully.

All Christians aren't the same.

The argument is not and was not ever about Christian contributions. Your objecting on the ground that some Christians do not take the Bible literally and therefore do not speak in a language that clearly endorses slavery and it's ilk. I am objecting on the ground that many people, Christian or not - do.

The claim in response to Creekbug was about the Bible, not Christianity. Look again. I stand in agreement right beside those who do support freedom and rights, regardless of the religious affiliations.

And you proudly lie about Christians, because you hate them with a fiery passion. At least, I assume you do. I am a fundamentalist when it comes to the Bible and I don't see any evidence of supporting slavery, rape, genocide, etc etc etc. You SELECTIVELY read verses and then argue vociferously that Jesus didn't do away with the civil and ceremonial laws given in the Old Testament. You look at a command to a specific group of people given at a specific time and claim it applies to all Christians. You aren't trying to have an honest debate about the merit of various religions, you are actively smearing Christianity and all Christians who don't agree with your narrow view of morality.

You can't tell the difference between a civil punishment and a supernatural punishment and you deny widely accepted Christian doctrines, so that you can mischaracterize and smear Christianity, why should I care what your opinion is of me?

Not only that, but people refuse to acknowledge that "slavery" in the Bible is a willing contract entered into by both parties. We have the same thing today, it called the "work force".

And, the commandment "thou shalt not steal" is in fact, about kidnapping. But why expect any non-religious person to know such things. To admit the context of the verses is to admit their fallacies.

The facts in evidence prove otherwise. Just look, there's nothing ambiguous about it!



I need not argue that it does. It can be shown as such. There is no question that it does.



Another meaningless imaginary rant which is based upon evidence of 'facts' that are clearly not at hand. I'm not anti-Christian, I'm anti-ignorance. I'm especially anti-willful-ignorance.



Again you assume wrong. If there is any certain behavioral pattern which I despise, it would be an elitist mentality. There are no lies about Christianity here coming from my keyboard. Apparently you cannot distinguish between your imagination and the current state of affairs(reality). I'll call that problem #1.



I selected the verses that apply to slavery and it's ilk because that is what is currently in question. That is how one supports a claim about the Bible. The fact is that there are verses in the Bible which ground my claims here. The facts in evidence are the passages which are in the Bible, because the claim is about passages that are in the Bible. The verses posted clearly endorse brutal punishment, the sale of humans as slaves and the mistreatment of women. Included were three different translations, none of which were the 'worst', if by that I mean 'sounded' the worst, or promoted my position in the strongest manner possible.



I already concurred that Jesus denounced some of the earlier laws. Therefore, the facts in evidence do not support your claims here. This objection of yours has no ground beyond your imagination. My claims do not match the accusations, nor do these follow from my claims.

See problem #1.



You're right, I'm not debating about the merits of various religions. I am pointing out the atrocities that are clearly in the Bible. If every words in the Bible is God's, then I'm arguing about God's word. On my view, morality is not upheld by various different passages in the Bible, however this discussion is not about my view on morality per se. It is more about looking at the obvious immoral acts that are openly and clearly procsribed in the Bible.

I do that by quoting the verses which reflect this. There is no better way to show what the Bible contains.



Whether or not I can tell the difference between a civil punishment and a supernatural punishment was not ever in question, nor does it have any bearing upon the falsity of you claim. You claimed that the Ten Commandments did not include punishment. The Bible says otherwise. It follows from the fact that I knew that and you did not, that your understanding is unreliable. Supernatural punishment, assuming that such a thing exists, is necessarily entailed by the concept of punishment.

The Ten Commandments include punishment. You're wrong in your understanding of the Bible, at least regarding that.

Whether or not you care what my opinion is of you has no bearing. I separate your understanding from you personally by focusing upon the product of your understanding... that is the quality and/or merits of the arguments that you've put forth in support of your claims. Seeing how they are not supported by the facts in evidence, they have little to inferencial value. That's just the way it is with factual/knowledge claims Spider.

My argument here is not about you. You are not the Bible.

Looking back through the last few pages of this thread and counting all of the personal remarks that you have put forth about me personally it is no wonder that you feel that I'm attacking you on some level. These are the kind of responses and personal slights that have been and will continue to be ignored.

So don't waste your time with that.

"That" was a falsehood to begin with. Not a good start.



Pure unjustified nonsense.

Equating biblical slavery to today's workforce on the ground that both of those things share the common denominator of one's willfully entering into a contract shows a complete lack of understanding regarding what those terms mean.

No one in their right mind, either now or then, would willingly and voluntarily submit themselves to being sold into the grim circumstances that are outlined in the various biblical passages that proscribe the proper treatment of slaves.



I suggest that you look up the term fallacy.

I suggest you read the Bible before pretending to know what's in it, but I doubt that's gonna happen.

So maybe you should just dictate to the rest of us what a fallacy is and how your suppositions are not one (or many).

And yet they did. And the treatment wasn't that bad, because they were protected by law. You deny facts and refuse to believe any evidence that refutes your beliefs.

I'm done talking to you. Your bigotry has blinded you and it's impossible to have an intelligent and civil conversation with someone who has chosen to have his own facts.

I presume that the meaning here is understood by the author. Therefore, it is quite clear that this is yet another apparent breach between the imagination of an author and the current state of affairs.

See #1.



My arguments have been given. I stand beside them. It is not my responsibility to teach another how to properly debate a topic.

What facts? What evidence? See problem #1.

There is no evidence presented here that refutes my beliefs. Slavery is endorsed and instructed by the Bible. Slavery is held to be immoral by nearly civilized society today. Your unreasonable opinion is not evidence that these people voluntarily and willingly submitted themselves to slavery. They had no other choice, just as the slaves in America had no other choice at first. We given another choice, people do not choose to be slaves unless their sense of self-direction and hope have been obliterated through improper/immoral treatment. Just because it was a part of that culture, and evidently approved of by God, does not make it acceptable, moral, or right - however you want to put it.

Slavery and the treatment of slaves is not that bad? What a despicable thought.

7And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant...

“The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.



See probem #1.

I am recognizing a clear pattern here of reality being transplanted by the imagination. Imagining a different set of circumstances and then boldly asserting those imaginings as if they happened does change the current state of affairs.

Well Dragoness,

It seems once again that the OP has some merit to it. Here we have just seen one who claims the Bible, while denying that slavery was/is endorsed by it and then implicitly recanting and attempting to mimimize the severity of that fact. It has caused some apparent inner conflict. One who is true to themself, and/or has a good grasp of what love is cannot possibly do both, respect and love other people as themselves, and simultaneuosly condone the beatings of slaves. It is certainly unintelligible to further call that kind of treatment "not that bad", especially when it involves beating a slave to death, but not being punished for it.