Oh please Spider...

Evidently we have very different ideas of what constitutes being an answer... at least what constitutes offering one in good faith. It looks more like petty games to me. That can change of course. If you care to continue, please continue with this... because it grounded my continued interest in this discussion.

You clearly endorsed the claim that one cannot understand the Bible unless they are Christians.

Are you changing this position now, because I certainly cannot tell?

But right is subjective for all right?

You can be right for you but you cannot be right for 51 percent of Christians.

Most Christians interpretation of the bible and what is meant by it are so different there is no way that your views can be right except for you.

So you are right for you.

Which is completely acceptable.

It is arrogant and fraudulent to answer for others who do not have a voice in the mix I would think.

Is that a "yes" or a "no"? Either one must be a Christian to understand what the Bible says or not. You clearly already made that claim.

Do you still endorse it?

No. Right and Wrong. Truth and Lie are objective, not subjective. While we may not know the right or wrong of a situation, there is definitely a single right and everything else is wrong. In the same way, in any situation, there is a truth and everything else is not-truth. I know that's not a popular stance now adays, everyone wants to believe in relativism. But there it is.

If you cannot give an absolute answer now, then perhaps it was rather unwise then to approach AB and myself with such an absolute attitude about what you think it takes to understand the Bible?

Are you still going to argue a position which holds that the Ten Commandments are not civil/ceremonial laws?

The statement that a person has to be Christian to read and understand the bible is false.

To be Christian means that you revere the text as messages from god through man.

Rarely, a non-Christian who used to be a Christian will show a grasp for much of the Bible. Since I didn't grill the woman in question, she might not have completely understood the Bible. So I can't give you an absolute answer. If I only had the people who currently post here to go by, I would say it is absolutely impossible for a non-Christian to understand the Bible. That's the best answer I can give you. I amend my earlier answer to say "Sometimes a non-Christian can show a good grasp of some of Christian theology, but usually their understanding of Christian theology is wildly inaccurate."

Anybody can read the Bible. Anybody can understand the Bible. But the amount of effort required to understand the Bible is enormous. Very few non-Christians will ever exert that kind of effort. At a guess: one in a million at best.

It is not that hard to understand and interpret.

I believe some flatter themselves into believing it a great accomplishment like the great Christian scholars who are giving their personal interpretation.

Now it can be hard to reconcile the hypocrisy in it I suppose. Or trying to make it fit a preconceived doctrine might be hard too, or getting through all the ambiguity to a solid form of information

The bible is very easy to understand and interpret...unless you want to accurately understand and interpret the scriptures.

For that, you'll need the Chesire Cat from Alice in Wonderland. And whatEVER you do, PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!

Sheesh, Christians have killed each other for a millennia over differing interpretations and doctrines derived from this book. The Paper Pope says whatever the Beholder wants it to say.

-Kerry O.

Spider:

I didn't say you didn't understand it because you aren't Christians.

On Sun 01/16/11, at 10:24 AM Spider replied:

Yes.

I mainly think you don't understand it because you haven't read it.

The Bible is a very large document and very difficult to read. People have spent lifetimes trying to understand it. I don't blame non-Christians for not understanding the Bible. If you don't believe in Jesus or God, then why would you put that much effort into understanding the Bible?

Honestly, neither one of you have shown even a minimal grasp of what Christians believe. Once again, this isn't an insult, it's a statement of ignorance.

You haven't educated yourself on Christianity, so you don't know what Christians believe. It's not a judgment of your character or intelligence.

You can tell me that I know nothing about the breeding habits of howler monkeys and I'm not going to get upset, because it's true, I don't! Try to deal with the fact that you don't understand Christianity with a bit of maturity and introspection.

The bible is very easy to understand and interpret...unless you want to accurately understand and interpret the scriptures.

No, you did not. What you did endorse was the idea that in order to be able to understand the Bible, one must be a Christian. That statement cannot be both true and false simutaneuosly. Therefore, by default alone, if one holds that that belief is true, then they must also believe that non-Christians cannot possibly understand the Bible. Since then, you've altered your original position.

Here is exactly how that original position tranpsired...



The evidence here speaks for itself, but having noticed the error you've altered your original position.



You're wrong.



"Are you still beating your wife?" is the same kind of question, Spider. It implies that beating is happening.

The act of putting forth the effort required to understand the Bible does not require belief in Jesus or God. Affirming the consequent does not cut with one who knows better Spider. Belief in God is not required in order to understand the concept of God which the Bible illustrates. I also note that concept is not the same as the Christian God. It seems that you've equated the two.



I could not have said the last statement better.

The fact is that I've offered nothing which suggests otherwise. In order to have shown a "minimal grasp of what Christians believe" I must only report some of those beliefs accurately. That has been done, including my understanding of some of your own. The fact that you do not endorse some of those aforementioned Christian beliefs does not make the fact that other Christians hold those beliefs go away.



This wronglfully presupposes that you possess knowledge of my education.

Not only did you earlier claim to speak for most Christians, but now you think that you're somehow justified in claiming to know what my educational background is? Subsequently presupposing that you also know what the extent of my knowledge base regarding Christianity may be?

It is quite clear to me that you haven't educated yourself enough to be able to realize that you have drawn conclusions based upon inadequate ground.



I am recognizing a habit of drawing conclusions regarding the current state of affairs based upon the evidence of 'facts' which are clearly not at hand.